Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 16, 2020 0:48:24 GMT -5
(Note - may be subject to editing though I don't think I've changed that drastically, so skimming through this it sounds accurate enough to post here)
Reasons I could see Ne not being tool: I feel like I go from not knowing what to say (sometimes I just overthink it socially other times my mind in actually at a blank) to being able to just go on a ramble with little effort (I know rambling itself isn’t just Ne but I’ll try and be more specific as I go through this). I also don’t like to feel pressured to have to* add possibilities, I feel like I can do it quite easily in my thoughts alone and once I start getting involved in the conversation. I can get information overwhelm though, not just in terms of internal mental chatter, but feeling like I have more to get to. Not sure if this is more Ne resistance of looking at more alternatives when it gets to a certain point (like if I’m still trying to make sense of everything being said) or Se resistance if it’s about having more to do specifically. I get bored of verbal repetition more so than new ideas, but it depends if I’m in the mood for others new ideas sometimes too. Plus I can be really stubborn once I actually make up my mind, but this may be Ti convictions with 9 resistance. Usually where I have trouble coming up with ideas is with more mundane things like ‘where do you want to eat?’ and I can be fairly consistent (in typical sp 9 fashion) in these things unless I either get bored enough or somebody else sows me something new. I think this may be mostly an issue with Fi, but the ‘idk you decide so I don’t have to try and go over the options even though I do like new experiences to a certain degree’ is more asking for Ne maybe. Though I was thinking it was resistance to Se because it’s about acting on something new.
Reasons I could see not being Ne PoLR: I can be maybe (overly?) receptive to others ideas yes (more so when I feel like I have more to learn than to give), but I also feel like I do the thing where I take a situation or conversation in my head, and turn it around on different angles until I have a thought process formed into a Ti judgment (even if it’s not wanted by others, but this may also be me Te ignoring efficiency in a conversation). This seems more TiNe to me. I also feel like I have to remind myself to show more understanding to personal experience and not just ‘tell’ people how they should approach the situation in general terms (to not sound F dismissive basically). I mean there’s the fog of 9, and also being social last if that conversation gets specifically political, but the approach seems very alpha quadra, because I often present my ‘Ti thought structure’ while having a hard time to really get inside* the particulars of the situation.
Reasons why I could see Se not being tool – I feel like I regularly avoid action and that it’s something I need external pressure to often do. For example, it could be perceived social expectations (Fe I’m assuming) or something like me knowing I’ll have to do more job searching not just because it’s good to have money but because I’ll need it to graduate. I say often because sometimes I’ll take actions that seem optimal without such pressure. The thing is there’s a lot of thinking to avoid acting first. This could be looking up workouts for example, and then eventually doing them (or not). Or I thoroughly went through the shelves in my room, which sounds small, but I haven’t done that in years. I don’t know why sometimes I feel like I lack physical vitality (and it takes a lot to consciously have a ‘presence’ for me as well) and other times I have that energy but it’s very ‘task oriented’. I don’t think it’s necessarily in a Te way either, it’s more like I will do this action to accomplish this thing. It’s eventually* getting to the form. This seems like a more Si approach to sensing. I do feel like I’m sometimes restless, but I don’t want to decide on a single action, or just finalize a decision in general. Idk if this is Ne resistance being ‘overwhelmed by possibilities’, but right now I feel like I can add more possibilities, but I avoid having to finalize things even things I see are important to the bitter end. Not because I think I need to find the exact right time to act (though I may use that as an excuse, but it’s an excuse not a calculation, or again, overthink the social responses), I just keep avoiding it. Also, in terms of physical vitality I feel like I like being able to feel the energy and presence in my body, but it also takes a while to get there and that is more Si oriented.
Reasons I could see not being Se PoLR – Okay so I’m already more biased against this but I will try to think of some things. Okay so I do feel like I need to see multiple examples (Si) on their own to ‘re-see’ the pattern in others in a more synthesized way (Ni). However, I do feel like on a certain level I get* that everything is a reflection of everything else (Ni) and that this comes in different forms (Se). I’m also sp first and a 9, so ‘the body’ and ‘the all’ are kind of intertwined here anyway. This includes also visualizing an action/ figure in a repetitive space and ‘seeing’ the emotion it could evoke. The other thing is that I could see some of my pics seeming more Ni/Se, but I don’t think that in real life I seem as focused in. Like I feel like I look more ‘dazed’ (gaze without penetration basically), though I think I do look very ‘Ti’ ‘blank void’ most of the times except where emotional expression almost seems to creep up with me or I’m more focused on my feelings (Fi) in that moment. I could be biased though, so if someone else is seeing a pattern that I’m not seeing right now, I would like to know. I realize that TiNi will look different from ‘mbtis’ TiSe alone, but these are my thoughts as of now with what I understand. The only other thing is that I like I feeling comfortable in knowing when to act and being ‘in flow’ so to speak, but the part about action avoidance above is also very true, it’s just nice to get to the point of having myself together an aligned with the rest of the world, or more specifically it’s comfortable to not feel so in doubt of everything and self restricted, even if it’s a challenge to get there, much less maintain it. Also, while I can get bored of too many details in some conversations, I admire, and actually enjoy watching some content where people explain the details and hidden layers (which could literally be the history) of what I find to be an interesting topic, which I think isn’t just Ti specification, if even, but Si details, not sure if that could point to Si in the sixth slot or still Si valuing if it’s even much of a clue.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 16, 2020 3:47:32 GMT -5
First off, to contrast you with myself here, I will say that I don't become truly stubborn once my mind is made up, because it never is made up and never should be. To quote Roshan, "The process is infinite" with Ni leads and Ni 6th. All of the variables cannot be accounted for, so all "Ti convictions" are tentative. However, this is also Se PoLR: There's a certain ignorance to "how the ideas manifest in the real world," so, without integrated Si, TiNe can live in a sort of fantasy land -- not really of fantasy, but where everything really only exists in theory...very easy to construct patterns about the world to guide you that ultimately have nothing to do with the real world, easy to become a bit unhinged and fall into a vat of intense, hopeless mind-fuckery. I personally find that a lot of my "revelations," though often fleeting, are just because I've found myself actually in the "here and now" for once, I wasn't confusing the world in my head for the real world. I find it unlikely that TiNe, even with integrated Si, would become stubborn and resistant in the face of ideas UNLESS they account for the variable that "all of the variables cannot be accounted for." I'm not sure whether "having a hard time to really get inside the particulars of a situation" is alpha quadra. For TiNe and NeTi, playing with the particulars of a situation, the variables, deciphering them and figuring out where they all ultimately SIt(Si), credit to Roshan for that, is the main thing we do. Personally, my "fog of 9" comes in because I over-obsess on the variables/particulars of a situation even if it ends up totally missing the point, what's obvious. Something that I've personally observed in you, and I believe it's present in your post, is that you really do seem to have a very consistent and grounded, objective, realistic understanding of "the way things are": both about yourself and about what you've learned. It seems that you carry a certain codification of your own reality with you everywhere, and your capacity for self-location is quite strong. It really strikes me as Si 6th, and it seems very natural. TiNe has to REACH for this codification amongst all of the various Ne possibilities, they have to construct it and internalize it, and their own "historical sense" is given a lot of value, which pretty distressing to lack(speaking from experience here). |
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 8:03:51 GMT -5
I haven't even read your whole post yet Amy but something already strikes me and i think it's VERY significant.
You listed your reasons to see Se/Ne NOT being this or that.
Instead of listing your reasons to think it COULD be this or that.
In other words, you're trying to narrow it down by trying to determines what is NOT possible, what is NOT the case.
You're trying to collapse the options here. Not to expand them.
This to me seems strongly indicative not only of Ni over Ne, but of Ni tertiary, specifically.
Ne tool typically jumps from one possibility to the next, in a tangential, zig-zaging way, trying to find a loophole that would lead to a better option.
Ne auxiliary users, even when they aim toward a final collapse, don't care that much about eliminating the options, they kind of "outrun" them.
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 8:21:10 GMT -5
See, anthony toyed with the details of his type many times of the months. But i don't think he ever did anything similar to this. It was always about "why he could be this" or "maybe that".
Sometimes it was about why it was "hard to see this as being the case".
But unless i'm mistaken, i don't think it was ever about establishing the impossible first.
On the other hand, what you did here is a lot closer from my own process.
For example, if you just look at yesterday exchange between me and Roshan on the Eight thread, you will see me narrowing it down to SeFi by looking at several seemingly impossible polrs, comparing them until i realize that one of them was not so impossible after all.
A quote from Conan Doyle comes to mind here.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
And this is exactly why i would type Sherlock Holmes as TiSe btw 
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 16, 2020 8:29:04 GMT -5
Maybe? I put both ‘not (N/S)E tool and ‘not (N/S)E PoLR though’. Within the paragraphs though I feel like I am adding (?) not just negating while running through generalized examples. The frame I have it under is just ‘not ‘AB’ tool’ or not ‘AB’ PoLR because then I’d have to go back to defining ‘okay then we’ll what is* the tool? Or what is* the PoLR?’ I’m not sure how relevant that is though.
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 8:37:53 GMT -5
What seems relevant to me is that you argued for 4 different impossibilities.
4 "could NOT".
not 4 possibilites. not 4 "could".
And this is significant because it's really not alpha-ish.
Alpha (and delta) typically over-produce options and deliberate on the BEST one(s).
They keep "entertaining" them.
This sounds a lot more like beta mind chess. Reducing the moves, cornering the pieces.
Going for the kill. With the risk of "overkill".
I'll get a coffee and reply to your 4 paragraphs now.
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 8:45:07 GMT -5
Ok.
Let's not over-complexify this.
- Can you tell us more about those "blanks" ? (what triggers them ? how do they feel like ? how long do they last ? how do they stop ?).
- Is there a middle ground between the laconic state and the rambling one or do you pretty much alternates between the two in most situations ?
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 16, 2020 8:49:40 GMT -5
Okay enjoy your coffee. What is very narrow in possibilities to me though is that I only have TiNe or TiNi at this point considered. I don’t think I lack ‘adding’ (vs listing things to negate here). Like some of it could words could fall under the subtitle of ‘could be...’ , but yes I chose the words ‘not’ here.. so hmm.. Idk, but again the ‘not...’ in some ways to me leaves things more opened because it doesn’t get to specifying what is*, so there’s still doubt underneath. Maybe it’s still too differ from how Anthony would go about it though?
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 8:59:54 GMT -5
What you describes here, turning things around on different angles, is the main process of being a deliberator dominant.
TiNe AND TiSe will do that. All the time. To a fault.
Actually FiNe and FiSe too, in their own way.
Being Ne polr doesnt mean being blind to perspectives and angles. If that was the case, it would make the Ti deliberation itself impossible.
The angles and the perspectives are already there in the permutations and combinations of the Ti matrix.
The main difference between TiNe and TISe here is that TiNe will deliberate within a open, potentially infinite, definitely chaotic soup of ideas.
While TiSe will keep it real and actual, and will deliberate within a finite set of Ti permutations.
That's one of the reason why TiSe can sometimes seems very Te-ish, they have a tendency to list things.
The fact that you express things in general terms, in this context, seems more indicative of Fe over Fi than of Ne over Se.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 16, 2020 9:02:04 GMT -5
Ok.
Let's not over-complexify this.
- Can you tell us more about those "blanks" ? (what triggers them ? how do they feel like ? how long do they last ? how do they stop ?).
- Is there a middle ground between the laconic state and the rambling one or do you pretty much alternates between the two in most situations ?
I have an exam in a few minutes so I may get back to this, but basically 'blanks' is just when I feel like I can't think of anything to add, or like can't think of anything at all (which does sound maybe like a lack of Ne). I've never noticed a time limit, it's just when I start adding ideas, it's not much effort to keep going on, at least in terms of being verbose, but also through trying to see things at different angles. Also, it feels like it alternates between one or another pretty heavily, but I feel like I know how to add, but not too much in casual conversations (I'm more verbose in writing). |
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 9:06:04 GMT -5
Okay enjoy your coffee. What is very narrow in possibilities to me though is that I only have TiNe or TiNi at this point considered.
Right.
If we only look at your Sakinorva results, NiTi should certainly be considered too.
Your Te came up lower than mine.
Your Fe came up as low as mine would have come up at your age.
Your Ne score is high enough for 5th.
Your Si is high enough for a role function, especially in a jumper configuration.
I'm not suggesting it nor arguing for it. Just stressing the fact that then there was indeed more options when you made your first post in this thread.
And it's not just that you "ignored" this option.
it's that ignoring it kept things binary.
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 9:29:50 GMT -5
The thing is, if you are Se tool, it will be the Se tool of a jumper.
Of a young jumper.
So you would have a LOT of issues with it anyway.
Not only because of the tendency to jump over Se to get to Ni, but also because of the constant competition between Se tool and demonstrative Si.
And those issues could easily get bad as bad as polr issues in some circumstances.
The thing is that, unlike polr issues, those jumper issues would be painfully conscious ones.
(Keep in mind that for most people polr manifests as a blindspot, especially at your age). And not necessarily constant ones.
So what seems especially relevant to me in this paragraph is all the "often" and the "sometimes".
This for example :
"I say often because sometimes I’ll take actions that seem optimal without such pressure."
not only suggests than you sometimes get Se just right so to speak but that you are also capable of rewarding yourself for your success in that area, in some circumstances.
It doesn't seem to have the distinctive hopelessness of a polr.
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 9:34:01 GMT -5
Well, the clue here is that you enjoy watching OTHER people do Si.
Which strongly suggest that it's not YOUR agenda.
See ?
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Post by vincent on Dec 16, 2020 9:36:16 GMT -5
Ok, good luck for you exam !
Well, see, i asked you this because that's exactly how Ne polr manifests itself for most people.
A swing between laconism and verbosity with not much in between. Which adrian could easily confirm.
Eric Strauss wrongly think Ne polr is always laconic. It's only true for the most extreme cases of phobic Ne polr.
Most TiSe and FiSe can and will be verbose at times.
That verbosity is actually an overcompensation for the lack of Ne.
They will keep adding to stay in the (Se aux) flow and avoid the blanks.
But that adding itself isn't Ne. It's Si 6th.
And yes, you know how to do that. You demonstrate it.
tbcd.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 16, 2020 11:26:37 GMT -5
First off, to contrast you with myself here, I will say that I don't become truly stubborn once my mind is made up, because it never is made up and never should be. To quote Roshan , "The process is infinite" with Ni leads and Ni 6th. All of the variables cannot be accounted for, so all "Ti convictions" are tentative. However, this is also Se PoLR: There's a certain ignorance to "how the ideas manifest in the real world," so, without integrated Si, TiNe can live in a sort of fantasy land -- not really of fantasy, but where everything really only exists in theory...very easy to construct patterns about the world to guide you that ultimately have nothing to do with the real world, easy to become a bit unhinged and fall into a vat of intense, hopeless mind-fuckery. I personally find that a lot of my "revelations," though often fleeting, are just because I've found myself actually in the "here and now" for once, I wasn't confusing the world in my head for the real world. I find it unlikely that TiNe, even with integrated Si, would become stubborn and resistant in the face of ideas UNLESS they account for the variable that "all of the variables cannot be accounted for." I'm not sure whether "having a hard time to really get inside the particulars of a situation" is alpha quadra. For TiNe and NeTi, playing with the particulars of a situation, the variables, deciphering them and figuring out where they all ultimately SIt(Si), credit to Roshan for that, is the main thing we do. Personally, my "fog of 9" comes in because I over-obsess on the variables/particulars of a situation even if it ends up totally missing the point, what's obvious. Something that I've personally observed in you, and I believe it's present in your post, is that you really do seem to have a very consistent and grounded, objective, realistic understanding of "the way things are": both about yourself and about what you've learned. It seems that you carry a certain codification of your own reality with you everywhere, and your capacity for self-location is quite strong. It really strikes me as Si 6th, and it seems very natural. TiNe has to REACH for this codification amongst all of the various Ne possibilities, they have to construct it and internalize it, and their own "historical sense" is given a lot of value, which pretty distressing to lack(speaking from experience here). Hmm I mean do feel that I am full of doubt, but sometimes I may more or less 'rehash out thoughts' than really keep changing them. Like at one point I'm just 'over it' until I realize I'm not. What I do relate to though is an ignorance towards how ideas manifest in the real world, which is what I mean when I say I have to be careful not to dismiss people's experience because I will turn things into 'what if..', even if it doesn't reflect the current reality of the situation (maybe I'm comparing too much to Se with Fi?). So I feel like I can* give examples of particulars when thinking through something it may just not be the particulars of the outside realty, or like I may think of potential responses (also because of Fe) but I couldn't tell you the exact statistics of what's happening. I mean I can also have 'fleeting revelations' but I'm sure there are some moments where I've found an answer that makes more sense than others, even though I may keep going back and reconsidering or may change my mind with new information 9or at least rethink things over). Some of this could be lack of Fi too though, because it's a lack of self knowing. I can have a recurring sense of self based on my habits (which seems Si) but I lack clarity of self (again likely because of Ti>Fi). I guess I keep myself grounded? I have had this issue though where once I do something I worry that I've either said too much or too little (Fe worries), but eventually I worry so much that I just accept it's how I am. I could see myself maybe attempting to remind myself of what I value (while simultaneously trying to figure out what that even means much less is)?? Like it's not really natural for me to that either but some outside perspectives come from a place of different values or misunderstandings or just being abrasive on purpose. On the other side though while I can be swayed by the will and mood of others *(Fe), I'll definitely have certain moral standards that I'm much less willing to negotiate (Fi), even though I don't think most things are an easy 'right or wrong' either. So the strong 'self-location' is kind of surprising tbh, but maybe I could see the ongoing codification of reality part. |
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