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Post by vincent on Dec 19, 2020 11:24:24 GMT -5
Yeah. And that's also why Eric Strauss tests for Ne proficiency are bogus.
He typically ask people to come up with as many options as possible in a given scenario.
"you dropped something in the middle of the ocean, how do you retrieve it ?".
And he will conclude that people who doesn't come up with many options are low Ne/Ne polr. But the thing is, high Se people will typically comes with quite a lot of options, and will do so quite easily.
It's just that their options will be realistic ones by default. What they MAY miss is that, in the context of that test, they are ALSO allowed to say stuff like
"i will tame a dolphin and instruct him to get my item back"
"i'm going to take a trip to the North Pole, learn waterbending from the North Tribe and i'll part the Sea like Moses".
because why not ?
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Post by vincent on Dec 19, 2020 11:36:17 GMT -5
ps and like I can't really justify why I harped on that section so much, except that it was very confusing to me and somehow when I delved into it in depth it felt revelatory of...something. That something is an unusual and heightened use of Si in relation to Ti, I really do think so. The thing is, that would be the case with both TiSi and TiNi (due to unusual Si tool), so maybe I haven't really solved anything. But still I feel like I saw something... carry on. I need to read more. Clearly.
Yes, i agree.
There is definitely something going on with Amy's Si. And i'm not quite sure what it is yet.
Amy's comment about other people Si is probably a clue. But it's just a clue.
At this point, i'm pretty sure it's gonna be either
Ti -> Si -> Ni, so TiNi
or
Ti -> Ni -> Si, so TiSi
To go further, we will need to look at quadra values and intertype relationships. And we will have to look at/move to other format/support.
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Post by vincent on Dec 19, 2020 11:40:07 GMT -5
Also Amy , making a video isn't necessary if you prefer video chat. Or even audio. Just something not text-based.
A video chat would be great and would help a lot indeed.
I got tested negative for covid today, and so did Alice, so we will be able to travel and reunite with my family for Chrismas.
So i will be in Bordeaux next week.
I should still be available for a video chat session, i just can't know when right now.
Will keep you guys updated.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 19, 2020 12:28:41 GMT -5
I'm completely free to video chat at any time now that school ended. Concerning her Si, I noticed that too -- it's where I saw her "strong self-location" and recognition of reality "as it is now and how it has been," which I interpreted as Si demonstrative. However, what Roshan said does make me think it's more likely Ni demonstrative. If I'm correct in my understanding, demonstrative functions tend to "loom over" and control the direction that the valued functions take. So with TiSi(and TiNe configurations in general) there is going to be a natural and implicit understanding of "historicity" and the way one event flows into the next. With Si agenda and "jumping over" Ne, it's going to come out in that form of "splaying" various, somewhat disconnected concretizations, with an acknowledgement of how she(in this typing case) has unfolded over time. With TiNi, the process of convergence, or dilution unto specific points, is going to be more direct/obvious and honed(I'm thinking of Kilian and Styxhexenhammer as I write this). What's going to loom over is going to be something like "a natural understanding of preconditions." It's not going to come out as 'splayed' as much as it will 'practiced,' as though they were tuning an instrument. Amy doesn't seem to do this.
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Post by vincent on Dec 19, 2020 12:35:27 GMT -5
Speaking of intertype relationships, one thing i can say for now, based on this thread, is that i'm very much willing to work with you here. I don't usually feel that way toward my TiNe beneficiaries. But I very much feel that way with some TiSe, especially older/mature TiSe with decent Ni 3rd agenda development. And i should definitely feel that way with TiNi, who would be my actual activity partner.
Hard to say though because i'm not even sure i ever met one in real life. But i suspect that if i had, i would be stuck in his basement right now...
Now the thing is this willingness to work with you comes with a particular "i'll need a coffee for this" kind of feeling.
This isn't (just) because of all the Ti heavy permutations and nested parenthesis in your posts. I suspect this is due to the separatedness of the Si leaves that Roshan pointed out. In any case, this is markedly different from the feeling i get from the Ne-ing of TiNe.
tbcd.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 19, 2020 13:17:05 GMT -5
Speaking of intertype relationships, one thing i can say for now, based on this thread, is that i'm very much willing to work with you here. I don't usually feel that way toward my TiNe beneficiaries. But I very much feel that way with some TiSe, especially older/mature TiSe with decent Ni 3rd agenda development. And i should definitely feel that way with TiNi, who would be my actual activity partner.
If Amy is TiSi and Robin is NiFi, that would also make her Robin's actual quasi-identical, correct?
In the conversations I have with Amy, we riff off one another very naturally(and sort of "alpha-ishly," I guess). Overall, our interaction styles: how we approach one another/open converstations/where conversations lead don't seem notably distinct. I will say that compared to people like Kilian and Sarah, they seem to leave me a lot less room to "openly ideate"(with them) before their own ideas coincide to form a cohesive conclusion. The "convergence" factor is far stronger and perhaps even more visceral with them than I see with Amy. Something about them, for me, feels "hampering." What I will say, is that Amy seems to stew-over and deliberate on a single idea or possibility more than me, squeezing the potential out of it, and it tends not to form something cohesive. Thinking about it more, it does seem as though she accounts for "all possible variables at once," but perhaps doesn't try the 'wacky' attempts at actually running through all of those variables/possibilities, taking each one very seriously(temporarily), and experimenting with them that I often do.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 13:54:03 GMT -5
What you describes here, turning things around on different angles, is the main process of being a deliberator dominant.
TiNe AND TiSe will do that. All the time. To a fault.
Actually FiNe and FiSe too, in their own way.
Being Ne polr doesnt mean being blind to perspectives and angles. If that was the case, it would make the Ti deliberation itself impossible.
The angles and the perspectives are already there in the permutations and combinations of the Ti matrix.
The main difference between TiNe and TISe here is that TiNe will deliberate within a open, potentially infinite, definitely chaotic soup of ideas.
While TiSe will keep it real and actual, and will deliberate within a finite set of Ti permutations.
That's one of the reason why TiSe can sometimes seems very Te-ish, they have a tendency to list things.
The fact that you express things in general terms, in this context, seems more indicative of Fe over Fi than of Ne over Se.
Very well said vincent . In my estimation, you were also correct to note the "collapsing" style of Amy 's OP. I've never taken that approach to deliberation/problem-solving with respect to my own typing issues, nor with personal-life-related ventures in general. On wikisocion, Se is characterized as the perception of an object's "kinetic energy," the energy which an object has due to motion. Assuming for the sake of argument that TiNi is Amy's actual type, I believe this will take on a more passive form. "Kinetic energy" also implies momentum, speed, and direction, and what follows in the Se-using individual is a viscerally experienced perception of an object's movement in "real time." Since Amy "jumps over" Se, I think the 'viscerality' of Se -- the perception of "the way objects move" if you will -- is more likely to be implicit in her understanding(and her deliberation) as opposed to experienced(and wielded). This is also likely why it's easy for her to see herself as Se PoLR. With Ni agenda, this "implicit but inexperienced" understanding of Se is still going to result that "finite set of permutations" with respect to Ti. "I know how things in reality are, I know how they move, this is how I feel right now, this is what happened." The information she receives externally will be sort of "within the confines of the here and now and how it was in the past," and will lack the loophole-seeking of Ne-tool. Thus, in order to reach an insight, or to read between the lines, that information must necessarily be "collapsed" and this is what results in her deciphering the IMpossibilities first. You're very unlikely to see me ever do this. Ne on the other hand can be conceptualized as "potential energy," which is like seeing all of the ways an object can move before it even does. With Ne tool and Se PoLR, the actual movement of the objects as it happens(and as it has happened) is ignored in service of Ti-deliberation about what "things around them" could be(as opposed to what they couldn't be). The danger here is that, when you have an eye on "all possibility," ANYTHING, no matter how...nonexistent, can be rationalized by the TiNe as plausible. I can sit here and argue with you, perhaps even convincingly, about why I'm after all this time actually an SiTe or why I'm actually 9w8 lead or 2w1 fixed or whatever. I can pull Ti-Ne conspiratorial reasons based on the "potential energy" of the moment and completely ignore what's actually...real. Obviously we understand I'm not ACTUALLY any of those things, but there's always a way to rationalize why I could be "in theory." That is to say that with TiNe there can be an ignorance to deliberating on "impossibility" based off "what's experienced as real and plausible" which IS the mode of deliberation in Amy's OP. Also, it's important to avoid confusing "cleverness" or "reading between the lines" just with Ne. Between TiNe and TiSe, when watching a real-time situation unfold before them(say, on a video, even) and coming up with an interesting way to "manipulate" that incoming information to create an impact(say, humor), it's going to be TiSe, not TiNe. I can see myself both adding ('what about this...?') and negating ('here's why this wouldn't work in the Ti frame...'). I understand that Se can add possibilities as well, and so I'd have to take some time to see how easily Ne ideation is accessed. What I have noticed in Ne PoLR as well though is an active linear collapse from a lack of possibilities, decay can only happen one way. I say active because Ni 6th also understands 'everything dies eventually' (which I relate to). I see TiNe (and maybe also TiSi) actively seeing where it could 'embody' itself through Si, but does not do this with the same linear action because that would mean having to ignore Ne alternatives to continue Se force. 'With Ni agenda, this "implicit but inexperienced" understanding of Se is still going to result that "finite set of permutations" with respect to Ti. "I know how things in reality are, I know how they move, this is how I feel right now, this is what happened." The information she receives externally will be sort of "within the confines of the here and now and how it was in the past," and will lack the loophole-seeking of Ne-tool. Thus, in order to reach an insight, or to read between the lines, that information must necessarily be "collapsed" and this is what results in her deciphering the IMpossibilities first. You're very unlikely to see me ever do this.'I could see myself bouncing back and forth within a 'set' of information, so that could be seen as a lack of Ne. It's the next line "I know how things in reality are, I know...." that I'm much less sure if I relate to. I don't think I'm confined to now and the past in my thinking (but why would Ni agenda despite ne PoLR be confined in the past? Even then I don't think I'll only think of 'what could happen' based on what is tangible in the present). The other question is where my 'sense of self' is oriented in terms of which slot Si is in. I feel like I construct myself through filtering through what makes sense to me versus what doesn't (and sometimes the 'answer' is ambiguous), and am opened about listening to the personal philosophies and narratives of other people if I find value in a certain thought process. On the one hand this could be seen as Si agenda 'collecting various narratives'. On the other hand I'm wondering if this awareness that everything has (at least the potential) to grow into itself (versus Ni eventual decay) is a sign of Si 6th, and with Se being skipped over in TiNi that awareness may not be dealt with as readily as with TiSe itself. Like I said before I don't see myself having this continual linear collapse, so there's only so many things that can't be opened up or can't be revised again and so on. However, I will also say that I'd probably agree that I'm less likely to continually try* and add on possibilities when I'm more settled about an idea (also how would this work for TiSi since I'd imagine there is more awareness of Si concretization from Ti deliberation there as well?). If someone brings up something new though I don't think I have so much Ne resistance that I'd try to automatically (or at all) move away from an alternative (at least if it's really an alternative and not something I've already thought about thoroughly enough). Also I guess to be more specific, if I wanted to I could take what I relate to from various types and try to explain it as myself, but I wouldn't because that would be unnecessarily confusing and I don't want to, and so that could be Ne resistance to 'possibilities just because', but there are other times in my life where 'possibilities just because' and a desire for knowing the alternatives, even if there seems to be no 'purpose' to it is much more aligned with my thinking. The last one may be a matter of Ti>Te maybe. 'Purpose' can be a loaded term imo since it's often defined through whatever situation (Si) or current structure it aids or has the potential to aid. Sometimes what isn't beneficial now is either beneficial later or isn't situational at all (Ni) but a matter of gaining multiple perspectives and growing into a better version of yourself (I add this in because this seems like it could be Si 6th as well). Also for the last part, I'm horrible at tying* to be funny, but sometimes I can manage to 'poke' (I swear I'm nice) into that 'observational humor', but it usually takes some time or idk maybe just luck to have the right thing to say (I have less thoughts on this part, so the above information is likely more relevant here). Edit: 'observational humour' could be poking at what was said in the moment or it could be something that seems more internal to that individual (assuming that it's done in a way that isn't just mean lol)
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 13:58:56 GMT -5
Yeah. And that's also why Eric Strauss tests for Ne proficiency are bogus.
He typically ask people to come up with as many options as possible in a given scenario.
"you dropped something in the middle of the ocean, how do you retrieve it ?".
And he will conclude that people who doesn't come up with many options are low Ne/Ne polr. But the thing is, high Se people will typically comes with quite a lot of options, and will do so quite easily.
It's just that their options will be realistic ones by default. What they MAY miss is that, in the context of that test, they are ALSO allowed to say stuff like
"i will tame a dolphin and instruct him to get my item back"
"i'm going to take a trip to the North Pole, learn waterbending from the North Tribe and i'll part the Sea like Moses".
because why not ?
Yeah I'm thinking that if maybe someone gave me a specific situation that I'd try and think of what's more 'probable' first before the water bending. I thought of 'what about absorbing the ocean by dumping enough paper towels in it to soak up the water?', but I also likely thought of that possibility because I had some ungrounded alternatives to start with in this context.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 19, 2020 14:28:43 GMT -5
After what Robin said and some thought of my own, I'm inclined to agree that you don't have that "active linear collapse" in the way that the other Ni-agenda users do(Like Adrian and Kilian). There's a stultifying quality to Ni in the 3rd slot, I believe. When I read Adrian's writing, and when speaking to her, there's MORE 'objective'(Te in her case) and an obvious need to 'refine' a set of ideas down to a singular "pillar"(Ni third), so to speak.
You don't seem to have this. With you, it is like you're 'naturally' aware of a singularity in time and space(Ni 6th, "decay" -- though there are crossovers here with sp/sx and 9 "resigned fatalism") and you're trying to wade through a land of potential, even if that potential is "realistic" or "probable" it doesn't seem THAT confined compared to A and K.
Ti-->Ni-->Si does seem to fit the bill at the moment, in my opinion. Tbcd.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 16:13:16 GMT -5
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Post by vincent on Dec 19, 2020 16:13:30 GMT -5
Lots to read and consider. But now it's a bit too late for a coffee here
Will get back to this tomorrow.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 16:14:24 GMT -5
View AttachmentView AttachmentThere's some cringe here imo, but that aside I'm adding my past poems to the thread (more to come but I can only add three images here at a time).
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 16:15:16 GMT -5
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 16:15:40 GMT -5
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Post by vincent on Dec 20, 2020 18:26:04 GMT -5
Will get back to this tomorrow.
Welp, stuff happened and it turns out i won't be able to do that today after all.
I'll get back to you soon.
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