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Post by Roshan on Dec 20, 2020 22:11:34 GMT -5
View AttachmentView AttachmentThere's some cringe here imo, but that aside I'm adding my past poems to the thread (more to come but I can only add three images here at a time). Sorry, just realized you had posted these. (Have been very preoccupied trying to get back into swing of 'sp' mode, very, very hard for me). Really, there is no cringe at all. I always thought your poems were very good!
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Post by Roshan on Dec 20, 2020 22:19:13 GMT -5
They are hard to quote though. Can't copy paste and don't show up in quote bubble. But Amy's poems are like the true activity partner of David Lynch (SiTi). I imagine them both jumping over the extraverted function together if they were the same age and making a new Eraserhead.
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Amy
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Post by Amy on Dec 20, 2020 22:38:24 GMT -5
Sorry, just realized you had posted these. (Have been very preoccupied trying to get back into swing of 'sp' mode, very, very hard for me). Really, there is no cringe at all. I always thought your poems were very good!No problem at all, I'm sp first and could be doing better in sp areas of life. Also thank you!
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adrian
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Post by adrian on Dec 21, 2020 5:22:53 GMT -5
Amy I’m going to reread this thread. At some points, I remembered very much relating to some things you’ve said, but let me revisit this thread. At a glance Ti, Si, and Ni seem high in your stacking. I’m excited to read your poems! I think there are some parallels between us but I don’t want to make that proclamation too prematurely.
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adrian
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Post by adrian on Dec 21, 2020 6:14:34 GMT -5
EDIT: I had the disclaimer (but it disappeared???) that I’ll go comment throughout the thread as I go along. If I stop, but that doesn’t mean I’ve concluded my commentary especially since there’s a lot to comment on.(Note - may be subject to editing though I don't think I've changed that drastically, so skimming through this it sounds accurate enough to post here) Reasons I could see Ne not being tool: I feel like I go from not knowing what to say (sometimes I just overthink it socially other times my mind in actually at a blank) to being able to just go on a ramble with little effort (I know rambling itself isn’t just Ne but I’ll try and be more specific as I go through this). Pe (high Ne and Se) are fairly quick on their feet and can generate many possibilities as described by Vincent in another post. I’m starting to think what you’re describing above is property of being a Ji (Fi/Ti) frame AND a jumper. Ji is always internally building, recalibrating, and revising. With Se and Pe is externally hunts out and metabolizes new or in the moment information and stimuli to refine and update its framework. Think of it like jenga or the Tower of Babel before the fall - wanting to create a structure that reaches the heavens, or likewise wanting to reach that idea and expression that most accurately and purely expresses the concept in their mind. It’s not so much you don’t know what do say but rather you’re calibrating, deliberating, and weighing what so say. The question is are you seeking for impact and singularity or you leaving things more open ended, wanting to spur more speculation.I’m FiSe I can ramble as well. But attention to the medium, do you ramble more easily in a structured format like a forum or do find less organized formats like chats? Do you need a framework to ramble? Honestly, my rambles are never truly rambles in the most accurate sense of the word since they trace a singular line of thought but it stretches for long periods of time. I find forums to be more conducive for more thought processes. But again this could be a Ji>Pe/Pi thing.
With Ji-Pi jumping there’s no conscious hunter-gathering and interfacing. Deliberation is an even more internal process than the traditional JiPe paradigm. At this point I can’t speak to the nuances of the JiPi process despite being one myself.
I also don’t like to feel pressured to have to* add possibilities, I feel like I can do it quite easily in my thoughts alone and once I start getting involved in the conversation. I can get information overwhelm though, not just in terms of internal mental chatter, but feeling like I have more to get to. Not sure if this is more Ne resistance of looking at more alternatives when it gets to a certain point (like if I’m still trying to make sense of everything being said) or Se resistance if it’s about having more to do specifically. I get bored of verbal repetition more so than new ideas, but it depends if I’m in the mood for others new ideas sometimes too. Plus I can be really stubborn once I actually make up my mind, but this may be Ti convictions with 9 resistance. Usually where I have trouble coming up with ideas is with more mundane things like ‘where do you want to eat?’ and I can be fairly consistent (in typical sp 9 fashion) in these things unless I either get bored enough or somebody else sows me something new. I think this may be mostly an issue with Fi, but the ‘idk you decide so I don’t have to try and go over the options even though I do like new experiences to a certain degree’ is more asking for Ne maybe. Though I was thinking it was resistance to Se because it’s about acting on something new. Reasons I could see not being Ne PoLR: I can be maybe (overly?) receptive to others ideas yes (more so when I feel like I have more to learn than to give), but I also feel like I do the thing where I take a situation or conversation in my head, and turn it around on different angles until I have a thought process formed into a Ti judgment (even if it’s not wanted by others, but this may also be me Te ignoring efficiency in a conversation). This seems more TiNe to me. Believe it or not, I can relate to this. Ne polr isn’t entirely myopic, I think it can also suffer from “choice paralyzation.” With Ni third and Ne polr, a certain agnosticism can also be present. At least that’s how I experience it. I don’t know if you experience this, but when I get presented or perceive with too many possibilities, I get overwhelmed and at worst go blank. I defer to others to singularly frame things. I can entertain too many possibilities that I have no idea what’s absurd or not (I’m not high T in general, so there’s that). Just something to think about....
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Amy
Hummingbird
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Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 21, 2020 9:10:21 GMT -5
EDIT: I had the disclaimer (but it disappeared???) that I’ll go comment throughout the thread as I go along. If I stop, but that doesn’t mean I’ve concluded my commentary especially since there’s a lot to comment on.(Note - may be subject to editing though I don't think I've changed that drastically, so skimming through this it sounds accurate enough to post here) Reasons I could see Ne not being tool: I feel like I go from not knowing what to say (sometimes I just overthink it socially other times my mind in actually at a blank) to being able to just go on a ramble with little effort (I know rambling itself isn’t just Ne but I’ll try and be more specific as I go through this). Pe (high Ne and Se) are fairly quick on their feet and can generate many possibilities as described by Vincent in another post. I’m starting to think what you’re describing above is property of being a Ji (Fi/Ti) frame AND a jumper. Ji is always internally building, recalibrating, and revising. With Se and Pe is externally hunts out and metabolizes new or in the moment information and stimuli to refine and update its framework. Think of it like jenga or the Tower of Babel before the fall - wanting to create a structure that reaches the heavens, or likewise wanting to reach that idea and expression that most accurately and purely expresses the concept in their mind. It’s not so much you don’t know what do say but rather you’re calibrating, deliberating, and weighing what so say. The question is are you seeking for impact and singularity or you leaving things more open ended, wanting to spur more speculation.I’m FiSe I can ramble as well. But attention to the medium, do you ramble more easily in a structured format like a forum or do find less organized formats like chats? Do you need a framework to ramble? Honestly, my rambles are never truly rambles in the most accurate sense of the word since they trace a singular line of thought but it stretches for long periods of time. I find forums to be more conducive for more thought processes. But again this could be a Ji>Pe/Pi thing.
With Ji-Pi jumping there’s no conscious hunter-gathering and interfacing. Deliberation is an even more internal process than the traditional JiPe paradigm. At this point I can’t speak to the nuances of the JiPi process despite being one myself.
I also don’t like to feel pressured to have to* add possibilities, I feel like I can do it quite easily in my thoughts alone and once I start getting involved in the conversation. I can get information overwhelm though, not just in terms of internal mental chatter, but feeling like I have more to get to. Not sure if this is more Ne resistance of looking at more alternatives when it gets to a certain point (like if I’m still trying to make sense of everything being said) or Se resistance if it’s about having more to do specifically. I get bored of verbal repetition more so than new ideas, but it depends if I’m in the mood for others new ideas sometimes too. Plus I can be really stubborn once I actually make up my mind, but this may be Ti convictions with 9 resistance. Usually where I have trouble coming up with ideas is with more mundane things like ‘where do you want to eat?’ and I can be fairly consistent (in typical sp 9 fashion) in these things unless I either get bored enough or somebody else sows me something new. I think this may be mostly an issue with Fi, but the ‘idk you decide so I don’t have to try and go over the options even though I do like new experiences to a certain degree’ is more asking for Ne maybe. Though I was thinking it was resistance to Se because it’s about acting on something new. Reasons I could see not being Ne PoLR: I can be maybe (overly?) receptive to others ideas yes (more so when I feel like I have more to learn than to give), but I also feel like I do the thing where I take a situation or conversation in my head, and turn it around on different angles until I have a thought process formed into a Ti judgment (even if it’s not wanted by others, but this may also be me Te ignoring efficiency in a conversation). This seems more TiNe to me. Believe it or not, I can relate to this. Ne polr isn’t entirely myopic, I think it can also suffer from “choice paralyzation.” With Ni third and Ne polr, a certain agnosticism can also be present. At least that’s how I experience it. I don’t know if you experience this, but when I get presented or perceive with too many possibilities, I get overwhelmed and at worst go blank. I defer to others to singularly frame things. I can entertain too many possibilities that I have no idea what’s absurd or not (I’m not high T in general, so there’s that). Just something to think about.... It’s not so much you don’t know what do say but rather you’re calibrating, deliberating, and weighing what so say. The question is are you seeking for impact and singularity or you leaving things more open ended, wanting to spur more speculation.I've definitely avoided saying anything because I was 'still going over it' and was hesitant to take decisive action. I think it's gone the other way too though where I really don't have anything to add until I 'discover' my own train of thought. But attention to the medium, do you ramble more
easily in a structured format like a forum or do find less organized formats like chats? Do you need a framework to ramble? Honestly, my rambles are never truly rambles in the most accurate sense of the word since they trace a singular line of thought but it stretches for long periods of time. I find forums to be more conducive for more thought processes. But again this could be a Ji>Pe/Pi thing.
I feel like I can keep adding 'bits and pieces' to things that's less 'focused in' then what you're describing. Also, on the one hand being given a topic at least gives a 'launching' point, but I've definitely rambled without it, or without a 'structure' of some sort. Not with everyone or all the time, but I can definitely 'thought dump' for the sake of it . I don’t know if you experience this, but when I get presented or perceive with too many possibilities, I get overwhelmed and at worst go blank. I defer to others to singularly frame things. I can entertain too many possibilities that I have no idea what’s absurd or not (I’m not high T in general, so there’s that).I can get overwhelmed with too many options from other people, to the point of either blanking out (though I don't really need to 'overwhelmed' for that to happen, but then again that could just be ji frame + jumper like you said). Or it's mostly, imo, a matter of 'not wanting to deal with too many variables all at once'. Either because there are too many things to process, or because there's a certain degree of decisiveness required in that moment, of which I often lack. I'm less sure about myself when it comes to my ability to add possibilities rather than just receive them, or if I just go over 'too many' possible details (which could point more to Si), even if the frame, and the set of general points within that frame is relatively still consistent. I don't know if I'd say that I defer things to a singular frame either unless there's a reason that 'frame' is sticking more where it's harder to be as opened to other ideas.
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Post by vincent on Dec 22, 2020 16:34:57 GMT -5
Sorry i didn't got back to you already AmyI'm at my parent's place for Chrismas right now so it's pretty hard to focus and find time. I'm still on it though.
tbcd.
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adrian
Terra9Incognita
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Post by adrian on Dec 22, 2020 20:13:18 GMT -5
Same here. Today is my last day of work and after that, I’ll have a two week vacation. So after today, I’ll have more time to devote to this thread.
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anthony
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Post by anthony on Dec 23, 2020 17:13:53 GMT -5
It’s not so much you don’t know what do say but rather you’re calibrating, deliberating, and weighing what so say. The question is are you seeking for impact and singularity or you leaving things more open ended, wanting to spur more speculation.I've definitely avoided saying anything because I was 'still going over it' and was hesitant to take decisive action. I think it's gone the other way too though where I really don't have anything to add until I 'discover' my own train of thought. But attention to the medium, do you ramble more
easily in a structured format like a forum or do find less organized formats like chats? Do you need a framework to ramble? Honestly, my rambles are never truly rambles in the most accurate sense of the word since they trace a singular line of thought but it stretches for long periods of time. I find forums to be more conducive for more thought processes. But again this could be a Ji>Pe/Pi thing.
I feel like I can keep adding 'bits and pieces' to things that's less 'focused in' then what you're describing. Also, on the one hand being given a topic at least gives a 'launching' point, but I've definitely rambled without it, or without a 'structure' of some sort. Not with everyone or all the time, but I can definitely 'thought dump' for the sake of it . I don’t know if you experience this, but when I get presented or perceive with too many possibilities, I get overwhelmed and at worst go blank. I defer to others to singularly frame things. I can entertain too many possibilities that I have no idea what’s absurd or not (I’m not high T in general, so there’s that).I can get overwhelmed with too many options from other people, to the point of either blanking out (though I don't really need to 'overwhelmed' for that to happen, but then again that could just be ji frame + jumper like you said). Or it's mostly, imo, a matter of 'not wanting to deal with too many variables all at once'. Either because there are too many things to process, or because there's a certain degree of decisiveness required in that moment, of which I often lack. I'm less sure about myself when it comes to my ability to add possibilities rather than just receive them, or if I just go over 'too many' possible details (which could point more to Si), even if the frame, and the set of general points within that frame is relatively still consistent. I don't know if I'd say that I defer things to a singular frame either unless there's a reason that 'frame' is sticking more where it's harder to be as opened to other ideas. Can you say more about this "not wanting to deal with too many variables all at once" Amy? When faced with "too many variables all at once," would you say your instinctive inclination is to actually arrive at some sort of conclusion...or 'settling' perhaps?
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Amy
Hummingbird
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Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 26, 2020 1:07:34 GMT -5
Can you say more about this "not wanting to deal with too many variables all at once" Amy ? When faced with "too many variables all at once," would you say your instinctive inclination is to actually arrive at some sort of conclusion...or 'settling' perhaps?
I'm not so sure it's really the number of variables, more so the number of variables taken in at a time from other people, which may just be a matter of introversion. I mean I like having other people to bounce off of in a conversation, but I think I'd say I'd like to work through a thought before moving to the next one (even if my thinking isn't always 'linear'). I think I do like to come to a 'settling' but I easily find myself going off of that path and wanting to see where I find more information from elsewhere or just keep extending myself verbally.
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Post by vincent on Dec 29, 2020 7:53:00 GMT -5
Ok so... after some re-reading, i'm still not sure.
What i'm pretty sure of is that :
-you're Ti dom -you're a jumper
It's either TiSi
Ti -> Ni -> Si
or TiNi
Ti -> Si -> Ni
In both cases, Se and Ne would be hard to slot in their respective auxiliary and polr slots.
in both cases, Si and Ni would be hard to slot in their respective agenda and shadow agenda slots.
What Roshan pointed out here :
is a strong argument for TiSi over TiNi.
But Se polr is still a hard sell for me.
A video or video chat would certainly help a lot here.
In the meantime, let's look at quadra values : How do you relate to alpha and beta ?
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Post by Roshan on Dec 29, 2020 11:36:50 GMT -5
What Roshan pointed out here :
is a strong argument for TiSi over TiNi.
But Se polr is still a hard sell for me.
A video or video chat would certainly help a lot here.
Well, it's kind of more like an impression than an argument. I guess someone could have a similar impression with TiNi? Se PolR is a 'hard sell', yeah, because Amy seems to have a looming presence that she's unaware of, almost despite herself, including a looming 'presence in absence', but on the other hand the size and force of my habitual gestures are virtually unknown in the literature and discussions of NiTe. I don't seem Se inferior at all really, whence the early lack of rejection of NeFi (with Se role, and which MBTI tests almost always yield). I actually think my in person interpersonal 'gestalt' tends more to TeNi while my base metabolism when on my own just projecting out my energy (and also a lot of my creative work) would probably be seen as more FiSe. And yet you don't have to dig much to realize it's NiTe. But still, it goes against every idea of it. Deanna, a top moderator from Auburn's site, found it very hard to accept that this child and teenager was NiTe, especially when I told her I was hyperactive and always bouncing out of the chair in school. "NiTe doesn't bounce out of the chair"... Facebook public photo album: www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151314366096043&type=3. (With glasses at 9, in navy blue dress 13, in navy blue shirt 13, in red and white striped shirt 17.) A video chat would help a lot.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 29, 2020 11:48:24 GMT -5
Gerry Rafferty is also relevant here because he 'seems Fe PolR' but then we come to the music itself, it's Fe > Fi, and then we come to the quadras, alpha or delta, and alpha seems to win out..and we wound up settling on SiTi not SiTe. So yeah, the quadras.
(And btw upon scrutinizing his life and lyrics there is Te PolR mayhem and lament).
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Post by Roshan on Dec 29, 2020 11:56:38 GMT -5
ps I kind of feel I have to push for what does it mean that Se PolR is a 'hard sell' for Amy since I'm the one who originally questioned Se PolR based on the energy. "HOW can she be Se PolR?!?"
How can I be Se inferior? How can Gerry Rafferty not be Fe PolR? Etc.
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Post by vincent on Dec 29, 2020 15:46:02 GMT -5
Yes, that's very true.
Well, it's kind of more like an impression than an argument. I guess someone could have a similar impression with TiNi? Maybe yes.
I was going to say we didn't have any TiNi exemplar to compare with but i just remembered that we actually do.
We typed Andy Warhol as TiNi. I will have to reread that thread.
tbcd.
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