anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 16, 2020 12:29:25 GMT -5
I'll try to articulate my thoughts about this here soon.
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Post by vincent on Dec 17, 2020 17:48:47 GMT -5
Amy i hope your exam went well !
I suspect some (and maybe most) of the issues you describe in your last post are not really cognitive ones but rather issues related to enneagram fixations.
So i'm not sure they give much specific clues about your ct type.
Anyway, i'll reread that thread tomorrow, and some of your older posts and i'll get back to you then.
ttys !
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Post by Roshan on Dec 17, 2020 19:22:31 GMT -5
I need to reread everything. And yeah, how did the exam go, Amy ? Also, I wonder if you'd be able to make a video (or have another video chat) in the not-too-distant future about all this? You could put the video in the inner forum. ( Note to new/returning members: There has to be a certain level and length of participation to be in the inner forum, though I suppose in this case Amy could link the video, if she makes one, on fb or by email if she wants to). tbcd
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 18, 2020 1:06:49 GMT -5
I need to reread everything. And yeah, how did the exam go, Amy ? Also, I wonder if you'd be able to make a video (or have another video chat) in the not-too-distant future about all this? You could put the video in the inner forum. ( Note to new/returning members: There has to be a certain level and length of participation to be in the inner forum, though I suppose in this case Amy could link the video, if she makes one, on fb or by email if she wants to). tbcd Thanks for asking (both Robin and Vincent), I think it went pretty well, except for the last question which I only got half way through. I don't feel natural on camera (and so I want to avoid coming across as 'rehearsed' when I speak), but I'll try to see when I can make a video since I know it'd be helpful.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 18, 2020 1:07:19 GMT -5
I need to reread everything. And yeah, how did the exam go, Amy ? Also, I wonder if you'd be able to make a video (or have another video chat) in the not-too-distant future about all this? You could put the video in the inner forum. ( Note to new/returning members: There has to be a certain level and length of participation to be in the inner forum, though I suppose in this case Amy could link the video, if she makes one, on fb or by email if she wants to). tbcd Thanks for asking, I think it went pretty well, except for the last question which I only got half way through. I don't feel natural on camera (and so I want to avoid coming across as 'rehearsed' when I speak), but I'll try to see when I can make a video since I know it'd be helpful.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 18, 2020 1:10:23 GMT -5
Amy i hope your exam went well !
I suspect some (and maybe most) of the issues you describe in your last post are not really cognitive ones but rather issues related to enneagram fixations.
So i'm not sure they give much specific clues about your ct type.
Anyway, i'll reread that thread tomorrow, and some of your older posts and i'll get back to you then.
ttys !
Thanks! I hope so too (no but actually I think I did fine). I could see that, hopefully that distinction becomes clearer in the future.
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 18, 2020 1:11:56 GMT -5
Also, I don't expect an answer to this, but is there anything that sticks out as notably Se second (for me either in this post or in general)? Or is that the wrong question to even ask for jumping types?
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Post by vincent on Dec 18, 2020 12:30:44 GMT -5
Well, there is no wrong question really.
There is the big question : "what's the polr ?" (because once one get some clarity there, every other piece of the puzzle tends to fall into place nicely, if not immediately) And then there is all the other questions we can ask to approach the big one.
The thing about (young) jumper auxiliary is that it's probably going to be very subconscious and very reflexive.
It will probably be still valued, but not realized nor integrated. So it's not really going to feel like a "part of you".
I do think there is at the very least some reasons to suspect that Se is not your polr, and could very well be auxiliary indeed (or possibly inferior). But i'll have to reread everything before i try to articulate this.
Will get back to you soon.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Dec 18, 2020 12:49:32 GMT -5
What you describes here, turning things around on different angles, is the main process of being a deliberator dominant.
TiNe AND TiSe will do that. All the time. To a fault.
Actually FiNe and FiSe too, in their own way.
Being Ne polr doesnt mean being blind to perspectives and angles. If that was the case, it would make the Ti deliberation itself impossible.
The angles and the perspectives are already there in the permutations and combinations of the Ti matrix.
The main difference between TiNe and TISe here is that TiNe will deliberate within a open, potentially infinite, definitely chaotic soup of ideas.
While TiSe will keep it real and actual, and will deliberate within a finite set of Ti permutations.
That's one of the reason why TiSe can sometimes seems very Te-ish, they have a tendency to list things.
The fact that you express things in general terms, in this context, seems more indicative of Fe over Fi than of Ne over Se.
Very well said vincent . In my estimation, you were also correct to note the "collapsing" style of Amy 's OP. I've never taken that approach to deliberation/problem-solving with respect to my own typing issues, nor with personal-life-related ventures in general. On wikisocion, Se is characterized as the perception of an object's "kinetic energy," the energy which an object has due to motion. Assuming for the sake of argument that TiNi is Amy's actual type, I believe this will take on a more passive form. "Kinetic energy" also implies momentum, speed, and direction, and what follows in the Se-using individual is a viscerally experienced perception of an object's movement in "real time." Since Amy "jumps over" Se, I think the 'viscerality' of Se -- the perception of "the way objects move" if you will -- is more likely to be implicit in her understanding(and her deliberation) as opposed to experienced(and wielded). This is also likely why it's easy for her to see herself as Se PoLR. With Ni agenda, this "implicit but inexperienced" understanding of Se is still going to result that "finite set of permutations" with respect to Ti. "I know how things in reality are, I know how they move, this is how I feel right now, this is what happened." The information she receives externally will be sort of "within the confines of the here and now and how it was in the past," and will lack the loophole-seeking of Ne-tool. Thus, in order to reach an insight, or to read between the lines, that information must necessarily be "collapsed" and this is what results in her deciphering the IMpossibilities first. You're very unlikely to see me ever do this. Ne on the other hand can be conceptualized as "potential energy," which is like seeing all of the ways an object can move before it even does. With Ne tool and Se PoLR, the actual movement of the objects as it happens(and as it has happened) is ignored in service of Ti-deliberation about what "things around them" could be(as opposed to what they couldn't be). The danger here is that, when you have an eye on "all possibility," ANYTHING, no matter how...nonexistent, can be rationalized by the TiNe as plausible. I can sit here and argue with you, perhaps even convincingly, about why I'm after all this time actually an SiTe or why I'm actually 9w8 lead or 2w1 fixed or whatever. I can pull Ti-Ne conspiratorial reasons based on the "potential energy" of the moment and completely ignore what's actually...real. Obviously we understand I'm not ACTUALLY any of those things, but there's always a way to rationalize why I could be "in theory." That is to say that with TiNe there can be an ignorance to deliberating on "impossibility" based off "what's experienced as real and plausible" which IS the mode of deliberation in Amy's OP. Also, it's important to avoid confusing "cleverness" or "reading between the lines" just with Ne. Between TiNe and TiSe, when watching a real-time situation unfold before them(say, on a video, even) and coming up with an interesting way to "manipulate" that incoming information to create an impact(say, humor), it's going to be TiSe, not TiNe.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 18, 2020 23:22:53 GMT -5
(Note - may be subject to editing though I don't think I've changed that drastically, so skimming through this it sounds accurate enough to post here) Reasons I could see Ne not being tool: I feel like I go from not knowing what to say (sometimes I just overthink it socially other times my mind in actually at a blank) to being able to just go on a ramble with little effort (I know rambling itself isn’t just Ne but I’ll try and be more specific as I go through this). I also don’t like to feel pressured to have to* add possibilities, I feel like I can do it quite easily in my thoughts alone and once I start getting involved in the conversation. I can get information overwhelm though, not just in terms of internal mental chatter, but feeling like I have more to get to. Not sure if this is more Ne resistance of looking at more alternatives when it gets to a certain point (like if I’m still trying to make sense of everything being said) or Se resistance if it’s about having more to do specifically. I get bored of verbal repetition more so than new ideas, but it depends if I’m in the mood for others new ideas sometimes too. Plus I can be really stubborn once I actually make up my mind, but this may be Ti convictions with 9 resistance. Usually where I have trouble coming up with ideas is with more mundane things like ‘where do you want to eat?’ and I can be fairly consistent (in typical sp 9 fashion) in these things unless I either get bored enough or somebody else sows me something new. I think this may be mostly an issue with Fi, but the ‘idk you decide so I don’t have to try and go over the options even though I do like new experiences to a certain degree’ is more asking for Ne maybe. Though I was thinking it was resistance to Se because it’s about acting on something new. Reasons I could see not being Ne PoLR: I can be maybe (overly?) receptive to others ideas yes (more so when I feel like I have more to learn than to give), but I also feel like I do the thing where I take a situation or conversation in my head, and turn it around on different angles until I have a thought process formed into a Ti judgment (even if it’s not wanted by others, but this may also be me Te ignoring efficiency in a conversation). This seems more TiNe to me. I also feel like I have to remind myself to show more understanding to personal experience and not just ‘tell’ people how they should approach the situation in general terms (to not sound F dismissive basically). I mean there’s the fog of 9, and also being social last if that conversation gets specifically political, but the approach seems very alpha quadra, because I often present my ‘Ti thought structure’ while having a hard time to really get inside* the particulars of the situation.
Reasons why I could see Se not being tool – I feel like I regularly avoid action and that it’s something I need external pressure to often do. For example, it could be perceived social expectations (Fe I’m assuming) or something like me knowing I’ll have to do more job searching not just because it’s good to have money but because I’ll need it to graduate. I say often because sometimes I’ll take actions that seem optimal without such pressure. The thing is there’s a lot of thinking to avoid acting first. This could be looking up workouts for example, and then eventually doing them (or not). Or I thoroughly went through the shelves in my room, which sounds small, but I haven’t done that in years. I don’t know why sometimes I feel like I lack physical vitality (and it takes a lot to consciously have a ‘presence’ for me as well) and other times I have that energy but it’s very ‘task oriented’. I don’t think it’s necessarily in a Te way either, it’s more like I will do this action to accomplish this thing. It’s eventually* getting to the form. This seems like a more Si approach to sensing. I do feel like I’m sometimes restless, but I don’t want to decide on a single action, or just finalize a decision in general. Idk if this is Ne resistance being ‘overwhelmed by possibilities’, but right now I feel like I can add more possibilities, but I avoid having to finalize things even things I see are important to the bitter end. Not because I think I need to find the exact right time to act (though I may use that as an excuse, but it’s an excuse not a calculation, or again, overthink the social responses), I just keep avoiding it. Also, in terms of physical vitality I feel like I like being able to feel the energy and presence in my body, but it also takes a while to get there and that is more Si oriented. Reasons I could see not being Se PoLR – Okay so I’m already more biased against this but I will try to think of some things. Okay so I do feel like I need to see multiple examples (Si) on their own to ‘re-see’ the pattern in others in a more synthesized way (Ni). However, I do feel like on a certain level I get* that everything is a reflection of everything else (Ni) and that this comes in different forms (Se). I’m also sp first and a 9, so ‘the body’ and ‘the all’ are kind of intertwined here anyway. This includes also visualizing an action/ figure in a repetitive space and ‘seeing’ the emotion it could evoke. The other thing is that I could see some of my pics seeming more Ni/Se, but I don’t think that in real life I seem as focused in. Like I feel like I look more ‘dazed’ (gaze without penetration basically), though I think I do look very ‘Ti’ ‘blank void’ most of the times except where emotional expression almost seems to creep up with me or I’m more focused on my feelings (Fi) in that moment. I could be biased though, so if someone else is seeing a pattern that I’m not seeing right now, I would like to know. I realize that TiNi will look different from ‘mbtis’ TiSe alone, but these are my thoughts as of now with what I understand. The only other thing is that I like I feeling comfortable in knowing when to act and being ‘in flow’ so to speak, but the part about action avoidance above is also very true, it’s just nice to get to the point of having myself together an aligned with the rest of the world, or more specifically it’s comfortable to not feel so in doubt of everything and self restricted, even if it’s a challenge to get there, much less maintain it. Also, while I can get bored of too many details in some conversations, I admire, and actually enjoy watching some content where people explain the details and hidden layers (which could literally be the history) of what I find to be an interesting topic, which I think isn’t just Ti specification, if even, but Si details, not sure if that could point to Si in the sixth slot or still Si valuing if it’s even much of a clue. Well, the last sentence of the second paragraph pretty much sums up the paragraph for me. After it says "This seems more TiNe to me", I keep expecting more "Reasons [for] not being Ne PolR" but they don't come and the paragraph doesn't come together. Something related comes (the whole thing seems alpha); something else I'm not so sure is related ('to not be F-dismissive', which would apply equally to TiNi so I don't know what the takeaway here is supposed to be--where is this going?). It feels like a little leaf storm--a leaf storm of very separate leaves, all dancing around the tree, yes, all FROM the same tree and also all in the same yard, but their colors all remain very distinct. It doesn't seem to be converging in, nor expanding out--it seems to be flying and dancing around in those discrete leaf bytes. And it's not the only example but it's the one I have on hand atm. atm I think Amy is TiSi. The shadow (Ni convergence) looms over everything but the different colored leaves keep dancing in the wind. "I often present my ‘Ti thought structure’ while having a hard time to really get inside* the particulars of the situation." See, it seems like it's particularization itself (Si concretization) that is having a hard time cohering to the Ti thought structure, due to...idk...maybe something about ambivalence of orientation of N... Another way of putting it: Amy is not collapsing, Amy is splaying. But she is splaying with discrete concretizations. EDIT: Oops, I missed new posts! I guess it could be the Si sixth used as tool that is causing this too. idk and tbcd.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 19, 2020 1:02:51 GMT -5
ps and like I can't really justify why I harped on that section so much, except that it was very confusing to me and somehow when I delved into it in depth it felt revelatory of...something.
That something is an unusual and heightened use of Si in relation to Ti, I really do think so. The thing is, that would be the case with both TiSi and TiNi (due to unusual Si tool), so maybe I haven't really solved anything. But still I feel like I saw something...
carry on. I need to read more. Clearly.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 19, 2020 1:22:07 GMT -5
The thing about (young) jumper auxiliary is that it's probably going to be very subconscious and very reflexive.
It will probably be still valued, but not realized nor integrated. So it's not really going to feel like a "part of you".
Re-reading "Wash Day" with more knowledge of ct is painfully illuminating. Because 'Marsha' is bursting at the seams with Te, her every thought process is a "Te cascade" of cause->effect, this->that; what she is seized by above all is terror at the failure of results these linear protocols will yield. But... Marsha was just a slightly fictionalized version of me and I am positive if I had taken a ct test--any ct test--at 20 when I wrote that that my Te score would have come out in the subcellar; I did not feel what Te is about had anything really to do with me. (And to some extent I still don't, which is why it can be so tenuous and easily lost). meanwhile Fe would have been artificially inflated, and depending on the test could have been quite high... but still...highest?....
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Dec 19, 2020 1:22:11 GMT -5
I will sit on this and try to respond to new input here within the nest few days
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Post by Roshan on Dec 19, 2020 1:26:01 GMT -5
Amy do you still have the poem/s you posted on ET? I mean I would assume yes....can you post that here?
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Post by Roshan on Dec 19, 2020 1:30:06 GMT -5
Also Amy, making a video isn't necessary if you prefer video chat. Or even audio. Just something not text-based.
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