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Post by Roshan on Nov 30, 2020 4:31:49 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Nov 30, 2020 19:38:44 GMT -5
Here is the link to the FIona Apple thread. It is difficult for me to see her as anything but a Two and we ( vincent , anthony and I) had a consensus on this, which I jumped through all kinds of hoops to show why. Some of the material comparing her to other Twos I'll move to this thread and link back to there. Of course I'm still willing to be wrong about the type but a really good case needs to be made. Unless it is my issue isn't the type; it's the stacking. |
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Post by Roshan on Nov 30, 2020 20:15:09 GMT -5
This seems to be my most cogent synthesized statement of how I see Fiona's type on that thread. In retrospect it seems as though quite simply, when you have a 2w3 (3w FOUR) with sp/ SO pulling up the sx and you have the 6/7 line a close second amplifying the interpersonal and introducing gluttony, plus you got sx 9, and sx is at home in 9, it is absolute merge, "I am no one without you", and you add on PTSD and the music industry colluding to market it as the perfect Naranjo sp "Fourish" Help Me Two doll between 4 and 8, well you got Fiona folks.You get someone who's hard to see as sx last but who upon inspection isn't really emanating sx but the effusive heart to face pipeline of 2w3, the buddy of 6w7 and the annihilation of sx 9. She ain't high sx, she is high social. What can she be then but sp/SO 2w3(3w4)-6w7(X)-9w1(1w2)? Duh. Just kidding (about the duh). But this farmer's daughter isn't high enough social for SO/sx...ergo... |
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Post by Roshan on Nov 30, 2020 21:14:26 GMT -5
It was very interesting to read through that whole thread after all this time. Toward the end of it there are comparisons with Sandra Maitri, typed by Naranjo and herself and Almass as 2 and no one contests it, and also Sharon Tate, a high sx Two. The image searches for Fiona and Sharon with keyword 'sexy' are galaxies apart. David Gray is right. 2 correlates with sx/so. Fiona just happens to have practically the sx/so'est sx last Two configuration imaginable, with reams of PTSD heaped on top of it. I was going to move the Maitri and Tate materials here, along with the earlier Foster ones, so you can play which witchi is which with Fiona. But those materials belong where they are. So I've linked them instead. Again Im willing to be wrong about Fiona so bring it on if you disagree. Otherwise she's close to becoming an exemplar to point of template for JUST how much higher sx some sx last Twos can seem than they are. |
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
Enneagram Core Fix: 5⁴
Relationship Status: searching
Occupation(s): idling
Education: ongoing
Interests: growing
Country/Region: chicago
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Post by hiddenglass on Dec 1, 2020 0:51:21 GMT -5
Summary: sx/sp stacking, especially midrange Mesmerizer (and also sp/sx) is energetically counter to the exuberant intrusiveness of E2. This stacking is penetrating and removed so it has a lot in common energetically with 6 (though it has more in common psychologically with 4). As a consequence, there will be more confusion with 6 for sx/sp 2 on both wings than there already is with just 2w1 wormhole. Adding on: my problems with 2 stacking come from a hidden belief that unless a particularly evocative Two is Brigitte Bardot, it can't be sx dom and most be Naranjo's sp Fourish Two. I feel like I made a breakthrough when I saw that my relatively subdued Australian 2 friend is physically and energetically a dead ringer for Bardot pre-fame, so there are just things Bardot chose to do that she did not: wear make-up, dance around in very tight clothing, etc. She is very, very seductive. She just keeps it close to the vest. She may be 2w1 (or at least 2w3[1w2]) but she's sx/sp--though not SX/sp. Every "Fourish Two" is not sp dom. Every sx 2 is not Brigitte Bardot as we know her. |
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Post by winter on Dec 1, 2020 9:14:48 GMT -5
I was tagged? Can't see where...
So I have some thoughts
I think it is easier to find older examples for these reasons:
Culturally, at the time, a beautiful seductress style wife was the ideal. A blonde bombshell, seducer, enchantment. It was the ideal. That is why you see Marilyn playing dress up in 2
I think it's easier to find French examples because:
Their culture is very sx2 and if you watch alexa chung's youtube interview with a parisian girl I think you will see what I mean.
Unlike say, England where that sexual passion is stifled - the French are a nation of passion.
They are also, compared to Anglo west, much more traditional in rural areas (catholic) so this ideal will die more slowly imo. Due to their religious history.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 1, 2020 9:45:11 GMT -5
I was tagged? Can't see where.. Yes, I had tagged everyone but vincent and anthony , who were involved in the Fiona Apple typing, so you, hiddenglass , adrian and jastyne . At that time I particularly wanted feedback on her but by the time I finished rereading that thread (which I'd linked to this one), I realized first of all it was a shit ton of reading and viewing and second, I had finally become firmly convinced of my own arguments. So I decided to delete those tags and just leave this thread high visibility for now, not realizing people would still be notified of the tag. But obviously, I want input on the whole thing . Two Stackings: The Final Frontier. haha not quite. But it's the largest area of what should be basics here that needs a lot of refinement. Not just the stackings, though that was the weakest link in the chain. Two just needs a lot of work. Though I do feel in going through all this material this time it's finally really coalescing. So I'm glad you did get the tag and replied, and tbcd after I finish organizing here. I'm compiling and linking and rereading and whatnot. Others' input is also hoped for; people, please try to at least skim over the whole thread and the linked ones first so you have an idea of where this has been heading. I am hoping to get a little gallery of Twos with close to consensus complete typings for the Study Hall out of this 'next year'.  |
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Post by Roshan on Dec 1, 2020 18:06:52 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Dec 1, 2020 18:30:18 GMT -5
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Post by winter on Dec 1, 2020 21:43:34 GMT -5
I am mostly caught up. I probably would have defaulted to 9 over 8 for j.lo if not for this comment though.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 1, 2020 22:27:19 GMT -5
winter , you mean just the comment on the complete typing we arrived at? There's always room for debate though I do think 8 fix last is undertyped. It can be quite subtle.
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Post by winter on Dec 1, 2020 22:42:00 GMT -5
I've been zooming around on here since I said this
Found the susan s. post
Seems I am not good at spotting 8 last fixed 2s because I associate any 8 as 'just their lines'. Unless it is impossible to not see at first glance.
S.S if consensus is still what I am reading, is so flowy in that interview that it's almost sxsp 9 so it is sparking a lot of connections for me as to spxsp 2w1 vs sxsp 9w1 and many other ideas actually. If she were 9w1 fixed like many of the 2w3s here it would make more sense to me.
Also this may just be because it is attachment but there is a lottt of 2-6 for these 2-9s. I thought it would be more varied, so this is v. interesting.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 1, 2020 23:18:14 GMT -5
Also this may just be because it is attachment but there is a lottt of 2-6 for these 2-9s. I thought it would be more varied, so this is v. interesting. hmmm....269 would be very 'evolutionarily successful' (for bonding/nurturance), and also yes, attachment is just common, but we actually have a lot of 259's too. Check out the tritypes workshop subboard of the Study Hall (the lavender one). I thought I'd made it open to all members but seems I hadn't; I just did. Also, winter, I posted to you on Susan Sarandon here. |
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
Enneagram Core Fix: 5⁴
Relationship Status: searching
Occupation(s): idling
Education: ongoing
Interests: growing
Country/Region: chicago
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Post by hiddenglass on Dec 2, 2020 3:37:49 GMT -5
I was tagged? Can't see where.. Yes, I had tagged everyone but vincent and anthony , who were involved in the Fiona Apple typing, so you, hiddenglass , adrian and jastyne . At that time I particularly wanted feedback on her but by the time I finished rereading that thread (which I'd linked to this one), I realized first of all it was a shit ton of reading and viewing and second, I had finally become firmly convinced of my own arguments. So I decided to delete those tags and just leave this thread high visibility for now, not realizing people would still be notified of the tag. But obviously, I want input on the whole thing . Two Stackings: The Final Frontier. haha not quite. But it's the largest area of what should be basics here that needs a lot of refinement. Not just the stackings, though that was the weakest link in the chain. Two just needs a lot of work. Though I do feel in going through all this material this time it's finally really coalescing. So I'm glad you did get the tag and replied, and tbcd after I finish organizing here. I'm compiling and linking and rereading and whatnot. Others' input is also hoped for; people, please try to at least skim over the whole thread and the linked ones first so you have an idea of where this has been heading. I am hoping to get a little gallery of Twos with close to consensus complete typings for the Study Hall out of this 'next year'.
that said I'm particularly interested in resolving 2 in my own mind, given how reductionistically caricatural 2 has become, such that it's almost to the point where only very narrow configurations of 2 are even typing with 2 at all.
I was watching the movie Doctor Sleep (semi-sequel to The Shining) the other day that had essentially Erica if she were a 2w3 core. Same fixes same instincts, but 2w3 lead, and she was a scary, powerful villain. Hardly Bake-At-Home Barbie.
I've read halfway through, but I'm going slowly cuz I am also researching all the names mentioned as they come up, and many of the people mentioned as "givens" I am mostly unfamiliar with them (like AOC) so I've got a lot of back-homework I'm "going through" |
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Post by Roshan on Dec 2, 2020 10:12:15 GMT -5
hiddenglass and everyone, there may be a good sort of 'rule of thumb' about E2 at least for now. Naranjo was right all those years he complained about the Ninification of Two in the "American school", insisting Two is very seductive, manipulative and high-spirited; you feel the will, the aggression. But Naranjo also revealed the existence of the 'infantile' sp 2 in 2003. This is just one of the most important things people ignore in typing, but when he did it he did not adequately account for how it popped holes in his railing against the 'Ninification of Two'. For him to say (I paraphrase) "sp Two Ineffective Help plays with people like dolls and wants to be a doll and that passive behavior is histrionic too" doesn't really cut it. The thing (rule of thumb) is that Two tends to be a lot more obviously willful and/or a lot less than what the "American school" and its online legacy may lead people to believe. And this polarity is consistent with passion/counterpassion theory, which has been around for a long time, and also with the understanding that the 'bifurcation'of E6 (phobic/counterphobic) is not unique, which should have been.
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