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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 16:27:34 GMT -5
After that things get pretty technical pretty quickly and i can't follow most of what he/they say again.
I have to go for now but i'll get back to this later.
That's the part I skipped to. But I'm really glad for the analysis. I see it as highly plausible that the supervisor relationship is actually the other way around and I think I have some strong biases against Fi when mistyping role for dom. But hey, at least I identified the function properly.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 5, 2021 16:29:48 GMT -5
It seems as though a tacit agreement has been reached that, now that Ben has confessed to having weaknesses, they will stick to tech stuff and Ben will be allowed to expound to his heart's delight on the workings of his work, as long as Lex can ask for and get clarification without issue. It feels like a 'T' compromise in an unspoken, and largely unconscious, battle of Se with Ne over violation of PolR. Lex seems very self-possessed and Ben more ingratiating. This new balance does indeed go on for a long time and then Lex expands the focus of the discourse by asking at around 1:53', shortly after Ben mentioned that certain elements had fit together "beautifully": "What to you is the most beautiful aspect of open cog to you personally, some aspect that captivates your imagination, from beauty or power...uh...yeah." It seems not clear, including to Lex, whether he means for aesthetics and power to both be sources of beauty or not, but it's pretty clear he's not Se PolR. Another thing is that his delivery here seems extremely rehearsed (the word anthony had used), like he's repeating by rote (until he flubs it at the end), but he's riffing off of Ben.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 16:40:51 GMT -5
It seems as though a tacit agreement has been reached that, now that Ben has confessed to having weaknesses, they will stick to tech stuff and Ben will be allowed to expound to his heart's delight on the workings of his work, as long as Lex can ask for and get clarification without issue. It feels like a 'T' compromise in an unspoken, and largely unconscious, battle of Se with Ne over violation of PolR. Lex seems very self-possessed and Ben more ingratiating. This new balance does indeed go on for a long time and then Lex expands the focus of the discourse by asking at around 1:53, shortly after Ben mentioned that certain elements had fit together "beautifully": "What to you is the most beautiful aspect of open cog to you personally, some aspect that captivates your imagination, from beauty or power...uh...yeah." It seems not clear, including to Lex, whether he means for aesthetics and power to both be sources of beauty or not, but it's pretty clear he's not Se PolR. Another thing is that his delivery here seems extremely rehearsed (the word anthony had used), like he's repeating by rote, until he flubs it, but he's riffing off of Ben. In that case I might actually re-watch as I previously put it "the Fi part" to see this sparring. I think Ben's ingratiation is probably a sleazy Fe tactic to not have to deal with PoLR, as is common for ExTP. Which also goes with the fact there's not many Fx demands nowadays, compared to other functions, and the fact Lex Fridman is probably cph Ne PoLR. So whilst Ben Goertzel sees his PoLR as an unconscious nuisance(or, alternatively, petty philosophy), Lex Fridman has acclimatized to his PoLR a bit better, which could perhaps explain some of the dynamic beyond the usual way supervision works.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 5, 2021 16:54:06 GMT -5
In that case I might actually re-watch as I previously put it "the Fi part" to see this sparring. I think Ben's ingratiation is probably a sleazy Fe tactic to not have to deal with PoLR, as is common for ExTP. Which also goes with the fact there's not many Fx demands nowadays, compared to other functions, and the fact Lex Fridman is probably cph Ne PoLR. So whilst Ben Goertzel sees his PoLR as an unconscious nuisance(or, alternatively, petty philosophy), Lex Fridman has acclimatized to his PoLR a bit better, which could perhaps explain some of the dynamic beyond the usual way supervision works. I think it's all involved, Lex's Fi role and his Se tool and also his absolute valuing of Ti, but I think the turning point here was a subconscious low Se blow by Lex. He just kept being made to feel he was putting his foot in his mouth every time he ventured to put forth his own new ideas, and so he kept chuckling along and then...he laughed at the idea of Ben teaching psychology. Technically, consciously he didn't--he laughed at the idea of teaching 'neural nets' in a psychology department. But even I know that all of this stuff fits fine in a psych department. He actually was laughing at Ben, and Ben picked up on it, also probably not really consciously, but that's when Ben got defensive, then nervous, then briefly funerary (deferring to Lex's Fi role), then confessional (ditto), and then their dynamic changed. But one thing you have to remember is that a supervisee is a beneficiary if the supervisor goes into shadow. Ben did not but the supervision dynamic did, so Lex gave Ben a little lesson in Se. In meat space non-virtual raw power. And I'm pretty sure that's also why power came up again with Lex as handmaiden to beauty when he allowed the discussion to deviate from Tx again. I'm also pretty sure Lex isn't aware of that either but you get that scent of blood again from him with that SeNi gaze intermingled with the aw shucksness of it all.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 5, 2021 17:00:06 GMT -5
In that case I might actually re-watch as I previously put it "the Fi part" to see this sparring. I think Ben's ingratiation is probably a sleazy Fe tactic to not have to deal with PoLR, as is common for ExTP. Which also goes with the fact there's not many Fx demands nowadays, compared to other functions, and the fact Lex Fridman is probably cph Ne PoLR. So whilst Ben Goertzel sees his PoLR as an unconscious nuisance(or, alternatively, petty philosophy), Lex Fridman has acclimatized to his PoLR a bit better, which could perhaps explain some of the dynamic beyond the usual way supervision works. But Ben did wind up having to deal with PolR. He had to confess his mid-life professional crisis, talk about science being a funeral, confess failure... Lex couldn't challenge him on F. He challenged him on T and S, I went into that at length, so... ? ? ?
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Post by Roshan on Jun 5, 2021 17:04:58 GMT -5
This was like reverse supervision the hard way. Lex benefacted Ben to Fi via Se. Se is not conceptual. This started when Lex told him he was inefficient...
Basically, he hurt Ben's feelings. And then they were on equal ground.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 5, 2021 17:10:37 GMT -5
It's subtle because it didn't take that much to puncture someone who was all puffed up like a helium balloon.
Just the will to not be deferential.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 6, 2021 2:53:48 GMT -5
Toward the end of the third hour Ben starts talking about his work with Hanson Robotics. Here he is moderating a debate between his two dolls. Sophia was a sensation when activated in early 2016, and was conferred Saudi Arabian citizenship, which was kinda creepy. Ben doesn't seem to be at ease in front of a live audience.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 6, 2021 3:04:14 GMT -5
Here's David Hanson with new improved Sophia. I was fooled for a while but he appears to be the Barby of AI and Benno's benefactor. Hanson Robotics website
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 9:20:44 GMT -5
Here's David Hanson with new improved Sophia. I was fooled for a while but he appears to be the Barby of AI and Benno's benefactor. Ye, this still looks pretty much fake. But the idea of a general, as opposed to specialized, intelligence is what I like about Ben Goertzel. The AIs today are hyper-specialized. How AI works is that essentially, you hardcode a value-system "score metric" into it, and then alter the previous-working/first AI(s) slightly and keep those with the highest score, at the inclusive number of as much as you're willing for serendipity to hit you at the cost of speed, processing and memory to get to that point. This evolutionary system works on some basic software that is inspired by how neurons work, especially in babies. Through ct, I think it's plausible to argue that at the moment, we still transcend AI, since their value-systems are hard-coded into them. They cannot create their own values. A friend of an infamous TwFP TeSi I met was actually working on AI that could solve the items of the highest validity g test there is, though in my opinion, that's kind of missing the point, as that is still a contrivedly specialized AI at solving the test of g, and I do not think it'd transfer across tasks and new situations.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 6, 2021 10:01:58 GMT -5
After the taut technical pedagogical phase of the interview things thaw and Ben and Lex gradually reach a new dynamic equilibrium. Lex still doesn't try anymore to offer up his Ne spurts from Ben's Ne, he'll stay in the T/S stance that protects his vulnerable function and 'formulate' questions, add information, give direction, etc. to Ben, but Lex's comments will also get looser and more relaxed again. Then Lex finally gets around to the most Fi question: does mortality give life meaning, at 3:40'20" of a four hour interview. And he only does it after he's given Ben a huge amount of space to theorize, sermonize, rhapsodize and in general Ne-ize about the importance of open source data access parallel to the hegemonic structures-that-be, in other words about the realm of Fe. "We are the world". To all of which Lex says "A beautifully articulated vision of the world", an Fe reply (not least of all in its triteness), and then he asks, undertaker's hat in hand, the $64 question: "Let's talk about life and death", he starts off still Fe-ishly, but now we're in Fi role.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 8:15:03 GMT -5
I am easily lead astray by verbal cues, and distracted by their semantics, so I mostly observe ct visually. So I decided to do a visual nonverbal analysis of "A day in my life | Lex Fridman". Morning and Mantra: 0:14 - 1:49 confessional, reading script, particular disposition of hands on lap(fig 1., extrapolated, don't know how it's called), very few expressions, quite controlled hands until 1:49 1:49 - 3:47 abstract hand gestures, 2:07 opening up (to vulnerability?) => gravitas => broken gravitas => gravitas again, 3:04-3:09 reaching into mind for a particularly difficult thing to verbalize(PoLR strategy or Si) 3:47 - 4:42 unignoring Te, elements of Se, 4:42 re-alignment into stone Watching a video without any audio is quite exhausting, and if I were to watch the whole thing and only then compile my observations, I'd probably not ever reach that stage. So I'm gonna be sending snippets of what I analyze, always with the probability of not following up on it. Right now I am giving myself a break on the analysis. I should probably also develop stamina in doing it. fig 1. EDIT: It's not a full ct analysis yet, as I have used ct only in places where I only knew how to describe it with ct.
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
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Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Jun 7, 2021 15:14:03 GMT -5
Another thing to note is that Lex has asked Ben questions with binarisms which Ben has answered "both, well, both AND..." It's very common with Ni third (and sometimes fourth) to try to 'prematurely collapse' to access Ni, which shows up as binarism--which can become cartoonish at times. Precisely such archetype templates as good v. evil. An N dom is going to instinctively push back on this. Not just Ne dom--though as Ne, Ben does so quite elegantly and succinctly, showing his own Ni unignoring. He goes right to the heart of it and dismantles the legitimacy of binarism post haste. But I think this is in part because he knows Lex is still very receptive. This was the main thing that I noticed while watching the video, and I think that him not only breaking the binarism was important but also that he completely dismissed any reason for having such ideas as superfluous nonsense. Lex pushed back with pointing towards the morality questions, but imo it wasn't the sort of push back an FiNe would do, because in a situation & a setting like that, they will be the ones holding the neck and obscurifying (is that a word? ). And towards the end of the interview he stopped pushing questions of that sort either and/or acknowledging their limitations more.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 7, 2021 15:28:17 GMT -5
Lex pushed back with pointing towards the morality questions, but imo it wasn't the sort of push back an FiNe would do, because in a situation & a setting like that, they will be the ones holding the neck and obscurifying (is that a word? ). And towards the end of the interview he stopped pushing questions of that sort either and/or acknowledging their limitations more. No, it's not a word. People (on google search) are playing with it as though it were to name companies and stuff but it's not. We have the word 'obfuscate' but I'm not sure if that's what you mean. 'Obfuscate' has a clearly negative connotation while the 'rendering obscure' of FiNe will often be as a means to elucidation. I think you may just mean 'obscuring'. 'To obfuscate' is more like 'to block' while 'to obscure' is more like 'to conceal'; but with 'holding the neck'...what do you mean? Also where do you think Lex pushed back and pointed to morality issues before the end?
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Post by Roshan on Jun 7, 2021 15:42:30 GMT -5
I know, it's a total pain in the ass to find things because the damn thing is so long but the good news is the technical middle stand-off is also very long relative to.
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