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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 17:07:31 GMT -5
" In my previous answer I said that Ben seemed a bit more 'excited' and 'anxious' to get the ideas out, but I'm really not sure why that would be. Hmmmm..." Well, if it's a reverse supervision dynamic as you (AH) say it is, why would that be? Or if Lex is supervising, would that be? anthony , anyone?
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Post by vincent on Jun 4, 2021 17:08:10 GMT -5
Supervision is an unequal intertype relationship. So, 'all other things being equal*', if Lex is Ben's supervisor, he should be able, fairly seamlessly, to 'give Ben Fi'. If Ben is Lex's supervisor, Ben normally should be able to 'give Lex Ne' fairly seamlessly. But due to the context, something awkward will happen with Lex 'getting Ne' from Ben, and he'll also wind up acting as though he's Ben's supervisor, trying to give Ben Fi, also with awkwardness This scenario would be 'reverse supervision'.
Yes, and i think it's indeed what happens between them, and how it happens evolves quite a lot over the four hours of their exchange.
I just rewatched the beginning of the OP video, and i think it really shows how the dynamic started to build up progressively between them.
Around 8'30, Ben suggests that what we perceives as random fluctuations at quantum level might actually be the thought processes of tiny superminds. Then Lex asks "then aren't we part of the soup of superintelligence ? Aren't we just like the finger of the entirety of the superintelligent system ?"
To which Ben replies "a finger is a strange metaphor". And well, yeah, it's a very S one for a very Ne idea.
Then Ben corrects him, supplying a better S metaphor. "Think about..." the random shape of a crowd at a sport event.
At that point Ben also goes very very abstract, very Ti (Epiphenomenon. Semi-arbitrary emerging pattern. etc) to try to get Lex to broaden his frame and get the Ne of this from the Ti perspective they share.
Which is exactly what a supervisor is supposed to do under normal circumstances.
Another correction of Lex's Ne, not quite seamless already, happens right after that. Ben observes that his dogs have no idea what Ben is doing when he is typing on his keyboard. Lex suggests that the opposite might also be true, and dogs might be superintelligent and we wouldn't realize it either.
An idea that Ben deems "not crazy enough to be true".
tbcd
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Post by vincent on Jun 4, 2021 17:23:55 GMT -5
" In my previous answer I said that Ben seemed a bit more 'excited' and 'anxious' to get the ideas out, but I'm really not sure why that would be. Hmmmm..." Well, if it's a reverse supervision dynamic as you (AH) say it is, why would that be? Or if Lex is supervising, would that be? anthony , anyone?
Well, i will have to watch more of Ben in other contexts to see how more "excited" and "anxious". But it seems to me that whatever anxiety he is showing in the OP video is pretty organic and unlikely to come from the shadow.
Offhand, i would say it might have something to do with Ben pushing his Ti auxiliary when he interacts with Ben. The thing is, our supervisee have our frame as their polr, but they also have our auxiliary as their frame.
So, in a way, they are both our worst possible students AND our best ones.
edit :
Another way to look at this is to remember that polr means vulnerable. So, a supervisee is a vulnerable target that won't conflict but might resist, and attempt to reverse.
pretty much the ideal partner for some "cat and mouse" fun.
tbcd.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 17:33:11 GMT -5
Offhand, i would say it might have something to do with Ben pushing his Ti auxiliary when he interacts with Ben. The thing is, our supervisee have our frame as their polr, but they also have our auxiliary as their frame.
That's what I alluded to above in the 'lessons'. I said that in supervision the supervisor's first is the supervisee's PolR but the configuration is set up so conflict is avoided. This is because the supervisor's second (tool) is also the supervisee's first. Another thing I've noted elsewhere (like Morgue thread) is that successful supervision minimizes the supervisor's PolR because that is the supervisee's (social) role. So if Ben is supervising, by giving Lex Ne we should see Ben get Fi too, in part because that would be Lex's role and supervision is a social relationship. But I think this is where, or part of where (and why) things break down. But I have to rewatch.
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Post by vincent on Jun 4, 2021 17:49:31 GMT -5
Another thing I've noted elsewhere (like Morgue thread) is that successful supervision minimizes the supervisor's PolR because that is the supervisee's (social) role. So if Ben is supervising, by giving Lex Ne we should see Ben get Fi too, in part because that would be Lex's role and supervision is a social relationship. But I think this is where, or part of where (and why) things break down. But I have to rewatch.
Yes i think that's absolutely right.
After the "not crazy enough to be true" thing, Lex ask him about "the human side" and the "greater than human", and potentially inhuman side of AI.
Ben replies that he was inspired by both sides... but quickly goes full blown transhumanist. And i don't remember if he ever got back to the "human side" after that.
I will rewatch too.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 17:50:15 GMT -5
For instance take me and TeSi supervisee Morgue. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si Me Te Si Ne Fi Ti Se Ni Fe He
My PolR is my supees' 8th, role. So no matter how offensive their pummeling with fake Ni lego toy Te is, I will be very unlikely to axe murder them, at least not from afar, because their role as purveyors of collective FEeling will tend to lighten things up. For me.
Not for vincent though. It won't be enough.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 17:54:26 GMT -5
With Ben as supervisor, which, yes, I do agree with, while he's feeding Lex Ne from his dominant to Lex's PolR, the entire Fi of the dynamic should grow, because it's a social dynamic, and Lex is Fi role. Lex brings gravitas to the room: "deep important things are going on here, we should all take heed and be very serious people". It's almost as though every Ti dominant wears an undertaker's hat as a memento mori.
But Ben does not take heed.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 18:01:54 GMT -5
The question is why?
Is it something about Lex's Ne PolR being from Ben's point of view quite thick and dense so he feels he should just be the moderator?
How much does Lex's having very well-developed Fe fourth, "found Fe" (which is why imo he may resemble an Fi dom, sort of Ti + Fe = Fi) have to do with it?
What effect does there being an audience that is often being ignored have on this dynamic?
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 18:04:19 GMT -5
Lex is like our "Valentines Day Heart Throb Science Talk Show Host Geek". He is for the fanz.
He is determined to be for the fanz. He WILL re-find Fe. Come what may.
What is the impact of the fanz on this here dynamic?
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 18:06:23 GMT -5
btw you can see I'm still a bit miraged by Ryan Long but nevermind.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 18:08:33 GMT -5
In an alternate universe it's just me, Ryan Long, and Morgue and I don't have to deal with any of you Ti people.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 18:22:04 GMT -5
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Post by vincent on Jun 4, 2021 18:26:58 GMT -5
Ok !
It's getting late here so i'll rewatch and try to tackle your questions tomorrow
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 19:19:51 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Jun 4, 2021 19:38:17 GMT -5
Ben should be dualized with his third wife. source
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