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Post by vincent on May 31, 2021 11:49:32 GMT -5
Reminder the votes were supposed to be in by this afternoon, iirc 2 pm NYC time. Amy , vincent
Ugh yes. I didn't watch as much of the OP that i intended to but my vote is Ben is supervisor.
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Post by Roshan on May 31, 2021 11:58:27 GMT -5
It's okay, vincent. We're going to be discussing it for a while over the next few days I'm sure.
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anthony
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Post by anthony on Jun 1, 2021 1:32:47 GMT -5
In the OP video, the main thing I kept noticing was that after Ben spoke, Lex kept implying and/or asking that he needed Ben to slow down or provide clarification. But he was doing so differently than in his other interviews—it seemed like he needed it for himself more than the viewers. Ben, more than anything, seemed anxious and excited to upchuck Ne, like he was rushing to get all of the ideas out, while being essentially inattentive to where Lex(and the viewers) were at with him. Lex struck me as uncomfortable by this, mainly because of the Ne overload. Overall it does seem like a reverse supervision dynamic, but perhaps only because Lex is the one interviewing Ben, who was inattentive in the way I just briefly described. Ben is extremely verbose, whereas Lex really doesn't seem to be at all, and in all of his videos, his speech seems largely rehearsed. I've never even seen this sort of thing with TiNe or FiNe, both are usually better 'on the fly.' I just cannot see Lex as Ne valuing, much less Ne high up, at all. I have no issue with TiSe for Lex, and Ben seems clearly NeTi. That video Roshan posted, "Do Something Difficult Every Day," is all about willpower and 'refining' how you operate such that you can handle more and more intimidating tasks and utilize 'force' with a sort of quotidian 'finesse.' Taking cold showers on top of it? Maybe you'd get some TiNe's and FiNe's doing this sort of thing because of Si agenda—like I can see myself doing it at some point, but with Lex this sort of thing really seems natural to him, and it's a lot of what he's doing and talking about on his entire channel.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 2, 2021 18:57:32 GMT -5
My responses to anthony here are as much for everyone else for general consideration as they are for him. A couple of people still haven't voted. Amy , winter , and I'm not sure if ahmed 's like of AH's post means he settled on Ben as supervisor. I'll withhold my vote for a couple of days. In the OP video, the main thing I kept noticing was that after Ben spoke, Lex kept implying and/or asking that he needed Ben to slow down or provide clarification. But he was doing so differently than in his other interviews—it seemed like he needed it for himself more than the viewers. Did Lex seem to really be concerned about the viewers? Ben, more than anything, seemed anxious and excited to upchuck Ne, like he was rushing to get all of the ideas out, while being essentially inattentive to where Lex(and the viewers) were at with him. Have you checked at all whether Ben is like this elsewhere?
Lex struck me as uncomfortable by this, mainly because of the Ne overload. Overall it does seem like a reverse supervision dynamic, but perhaps only because Lex is the one interviewing Ben, who was inattentive in the way I just briefly described. Can you clarify what you mean by reverse supervision? Why do you think Ben would be 'upchucking' Ne here if he's the supervisor?Ben is extremely verbose, whereas Lex really doesn't seem to be at all, and in all of his videos, his speech seems largely rehearsed. Does his speech seem rehearsed in, say, the one I posted here with Michael Malice?
I've never even seen this sort of thing with TiNe or FiNe, both are usually better 'on the fly.' I just cannot see Lex as Ne valuing, much less Ne high up, at all. Can you give any examples of TiNe or FiNe interviewers?I have no issue with TiSe for Lex, and Ben seems clearly NeTi. That video Roshan posted, "Do Something Difficult Every Day," is all about willpower and 'refining' how you operate such that you can handle more and more intimidating tasks and utilize 'force' with a sort of quotidian 'finesse.' Taking cold showers on top of it? Maybe you'd get some TiNe's and FiNe's doing this sort of thing because of Si agenda—like I can see myself doing it at some point, but with Lex this sort of thing really seems natural to him, and it's a lot of what he's doing and talking about on his entire channel. Do you find it unusual for a TiSe (Ne PolR) to be branching out with a talk show into sort of a generalist?
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ahmed
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Post by ahmed on Jun 2, 2021 19:15:30 GMT -5
I haven't watched the full video yet, but i generally agree with some of anthony's observations. Will post when i can get on the computer (and after i watch some more)👀
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anthony
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Post by anthony on Jun 2, 2021 19:30:22 GMT -5
My responses to anthony here are as much for everyone else for general consideration as they are for him. A couple of people still haven't voted. Amy , winter , and I'm not sure if ahmed 's like of AH's post means he settled on Ben as supervisor. I'll withhold my vote for a couple of days. In the OP video, the main thing I kept noticing was that after Ben spoke, Lex kept implying and/or asking that he needed Ben to slow down or provide clarification. But he was doing so differently than in his other interviews—it seemed like he needed it for himself more than the viewers. Did Lex seem to really be concerned about the viewers?
No, but that's part of what I said, that it seemed like Lex needed Ben to slow down/clarify for Lex, not really the viewers.Ben, more than anything, seemed anxious and excited to upchuck Ne, like he was rushing to get all of the ideas out, while being essentially inattentive to where Lex(and the viewers) were at with him. Have you checked at all whether Ben is like this elsewhere?
Yes, and it seems like Ben is almost the same everywhere in terms of verbosity and quickly getting lots of ideas out, except that in this particular interview he seemed slightly more 'antsy' and 'excited.' If I'm not seeing something inaccurately, then perhaps this is a clue in the dynamic between he and Lex.Lex struck me as uncomfortable by this, mainly because of the Ne overload. Overall it does seem like a reverse supervision dynamic, but perhaps only because Lex is the one interviewing Ben, who was inattentive in the way I just briefly described. Can you clarify what you mean by reverse supervision? Why do you think Ben would be 'upchucking' Ne here if he's the supervisor?
Well, Lex is the one who invited Ben to speak on his podcast, and thus Ben is going to be the one who's ready to spew the ideas(why he's 'upchucking' Ne), while Lex is sort of in the 'moderating' role, and this is what makes him feel like the 'reverse supervisor.' Because of this, it may not actually be a reverse supervision dynamic, but in this particular interview it seems like one. Also, Lex seems more of a 'moderator'(supervisor) here than in the other interviews I've seen, where he seems to 'level' with his interviewees a bit more. In my previous answer I said that Ben seemed a bit more 'excited' and 'anxious' to get the ideas out, but I'm really not sure why that would be. Hmmmm...Ben is extremely verbose, whereas Lex really doesn't seem to be at all, and in all of his videos, his speech seems largely rehearsed. Does his speech seem rehearsed in, say, the one I posted here with Michael Malice?No, not at all really. I think "rehearsed" wasn't quite what I meant. What I meant is more than Lex usually seems...like a very controlled speaker, specifically in a way that makes speaking "on the fly" seem a bit uncomfortable and unnatural for him, if that makes sense.I've never even seen this sort of thing with TiNe or FiNe, both are usually better 'on the fly.' I just cannot see Lex as Ne valuing, much less Ne high up, at all. Can you give any examples of TiNe or FiNe interviewers?
Not off the top of my head, but I'll return here if I think of or find one.I have no issue with TiSe for Lex, and Ben seems clearly NeTi. That video Roshan posted, "Do Something Difficult Every Day," is all about willpower and 'refining' how you operate such that you can handle more and more intimidating tasks and utilize 'force' with a sort of quotidian 'finesse.' Taking cold showers on top of it? Maybe you'd get some TiNe's and FiNe's doing this sort of thing because of Si agenda—like I can see myself doing it at some point, but with Lex this sort of thing really seems natural to him, and it's a lot of what he's doing and talking about on his entire channel. Do you find it unusual for a TiSe (Ne PolR) to be branching out with a talk show into sort of a generalist?
Hmmmm. Not necessarily. He doesn't really seem like that much of a generalist though, at least not enough for me think it'd be unusual for Ne PoLR to do what he does. He does branch out to some degree(like into physics, or his exercise routines and whatnot), but the majority of his videos revolve around topics in technology/computer science. However, within the tech field itself, he does seem to branch out quite a bit.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 2, 2021 19:45:26 GMT -5
Won't quote so: "AH: In the OP video, the main thing I kept noticing was that after Ben spoke, Lex kept implying and/or asking that he needed Ben to slow down or provide clarification. But he was doing so differently than in his other interviews—it seemed like he needed it for himself more than the viewers.RG: Did Lex seem to really be concerned about the viewers? AH: No, but that's part of what I said, that it seemed like Lex needed Ben to slow down/clarify for Lex, not really the viewers."mmmm..there's a difference between Lex seeming to need it for himself more than for the viewers and his not really seeming to be concerned about the viewers (much at all). And that's important and it's what I wanted to draw people's attention to anthony . tbcd
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anthony
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Post by anthony on Jun 2, 2021 19:45:59 GMT -5
mmmm..there's a difference between Lex seeming to need it for himself more than for the viewers and his not really seeming to be concerned about the viewers (much at all). And that's important and it's what I wanted to draw people's attention to anthony . Ah, gotcha.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 9:38:07 GMT -5
So let me try to clarify some of this so that everyone can follow along.
We have:
--two people (Ben and Lex) --one theory (their intertype relationship is "supervision"), and --two hypotheses (Ben is Lex's supervisor or Lex is Ben's supervisor).
The reason we have these two hypotheses is because we only have consensus about one person's type (Ben's), but we have two types suggested for Lex.
Both types proposed for Lex form a cognitive supervision dynamic with Ben but the question is who is supervising whom.
Here's what's needed to know for now about Ben, and it's also in the chart right below:
--So far everyone agrees that Ben's dominant function is extraverted intuition, what's NEw, what's NExt? He is an excitable futuristic visionary thinker (and doer). --Everyone agrees his second function is TI, so he's NeTi. His NovElty orientation is toward creating a logical MaTrIx. --It's unlikely anyone will disagree that Ben is NeTi. --As NeTi, Ben is FI PolR. FI is Ben's Unlucky 7. He least processes FInding the individual self, that which is of most individual value, in and of itself, to himself, and to others, through a process of reFIned valuation. So here's Ben:
BEN
1 dominant function, the water he swims in (NE) 2. tool function. (TI) 3. agenda 4. inferior function
5. ignore/unignore function 6. demonstrative function 7. unlucky 7, PolR, Arctic circle, hardest to reach and gives him frostbite ( FI) 8. social role
That's all you need to know about Ben for now. He's NeTi, and this means he's Fi PolR. Futuristic orientation toward what's NEw in logical maTrIces creates problems in reFIned valuation of individuality, in FInding the 'self', be it oneself, another's self, the self in the ideas themselves....
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 9:56:42 GMT -5
When there is supervision, one person's first function, the dominant, is the other person's unlucky 7 PolR. But the configuration is set up so they don't 'conflict' (for reasons not important at this time). The person with the PolR can 'warm up' to it, can 'get' it from the cognitive supervisor.
Supervisor's 1 water they swim in = Supervisee's unlucky 7 Arctic PolR
Supervisor 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Supervisee 1 2 3 4. 5 6 7 8
So the two types proposed for Lex are FiNe and TiSe. If Lex is FiNe, he's Ben's supervisor because his dominant function is Ben's PolR Fi.
If Lex is TiSe, Ben is his supervisor because then Lex will be Ne PolR and NeTi Ben will be his supervisor. Trust me on this, I'll make this chart later.
The TiSe camp is proposing that what is going on IS supervision, but it's reverse supervision, at least in part because the supervisee, Lex, is in the authority position of being the moderator on his own talk show. So Ben SHOULD be supervising him by just freely 'giving him Ne', but the context reverses the supervision role.
tbcd
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 10:09:22 GMT -5
I should probably move this into the private section to make a 'parallel thread' for learners, as I mentioned previously we can, but I'll leave it here for now so everyone can see ways to break things down for learners--especially those who don't have Ti and Si in strong positions. Which gives the space for other skills and talents, never forget that.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 10:59:13 GMT -5
Supervision is an unequal intertype relationship. So, 'all other things being equal*', if Lex is Ben's supervisor, he should be able, fairly seamlessly, to 'give Ben Fi'. If Ben is Lex's supervisor, Ben normally should be able to 'give Lex Ne' fairly seamlessly. But due to the context, something awkward will happen with Lex 'getting Ne' from Ben, and he'll also wind up acting as though he's Ben's supervisor, trying to give Ben Fi, also with awkwardness This scenario would be 'reverse supervision'.
*'All other things being equal' would mean no one is drunk, sick, or sleep-deprived (at least not in a way they're not habituated to), they're both comfortable speaking in public (they are), they didn't have a huge fight before they started recording (they don't seem to be angry or hurt), no one came up with a 'whammy', some idea seeming way out of left field that derailed the anticipated discussion (doesn't seem so), etc. And this is (part of) why we want to be sure to take a peek at how they are with other people in similar situations.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 17:13:14 GMT -5
I found Ben Goertzel when I found this website: sl4.org/archive/0508/11913.htmlStarting to look up their names, they all seemed to have wiki pages and their ideas were great. I didn't go into much depth on this website, and I have no clue how I found it, but seeing him in a podcast, he seemed instantly like a NeTi. Ben's stuff here seems pretty NeTi w/or w/out podcast...so you knew him before you knew Lex? Did you come across Lex because of Ben?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 18:09:21 GMT -5
I found Ben Goertzel when I found this website: sl4.org/archive/0508/11913.htmlStarting to look up their names, they all seemed to have wiki pages and their ideas were great. I didn't go into much depth on this website, and I have no clue how I found it, but seeing him in a podcast, he seemed instantly like a NeTi. Ben's stuff here seems pretty NeTi w/or w/out podcast...so you knew him before you knew Lex? Did you come across Lex because of Ben? Precisely, but it was not in the context of ct. It was just curiosity about what he has to say.
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Post by Roshan on Jun 3, 2021 18:30:25 GMT -5
This popped up.
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