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Post by vincent on Jan 27, 2021 15:55:03 GMT -5
Right, i just realized that was what ahmed was refering to.
And well, even if Auburn is right (and i'm absolutely not sure he is) it would only be true when high Fi isn't paired with frequent use of Fe.
So in frame and tertiary position. Not so much in the 2nd row.
Anyway, we don't need to micro-measure the (a)symetry of a smile to assess Fi.
In ahmed 's case a look at his movie reviews one year ago was more than enough.
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Post by vincent on Jan 27, 2021 16:08:37 GMT -5
The thing is, even if Auburn (and his crowd) were 100% right about those "signals", they would still mistype a LOT of people because -they ignore the shadow stack
-only slot functions based on perceived "strength of signals".
I have no idea how his people came up with a SeFi typing for ahmed (size of the eyes, maybe ?) or with a NiTe one. Based on their vultology his body language and hand gestures are very very clearly Ti...
So... in any case, i'm pretty sure it boils down to "they don't know what to look for".
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ahmed
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Post by ahmed on Jan 27, 2021 16:21:22 GMT -5
Right, i just realized that was what ahmed was refering to.
And well, even if Auburn is right (and i'm absolutely not sure he is) it would only be true when high Fi isn't paired with frequent use of Fe.
So in frame and tertiary position. Not so much in the 2nd row.
Anyway, we don't need to micro-measure the (a)symetry of a smile to assess Fi.
In ahmed 's case a look at his movie reviews one year ago was more than enough.
Vultology used for identifying anything more than temperaments will probably lead to more trouble than it would help imo - and with that still, at certain points it will be problematic. I still have zero clue on how they try to identify a position of the function through that (and from usually very short clips) nor will it work well in an eight function model because both demonstrative & role will probably show up quite a bit (and the role would more than the inferior)
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ahmed
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Post by ahmed on Jan 27, 2021 16:28:26 GMT -5
I guess I'm also probably mistaking Fe->Se "trouble" for general Fe.
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Post by vincent on Jan 27, 2021 16:30:51 GMT -5
The asumption is that the most "conscious" and developed a function is the wider variety of relevant vultological signal will be seen.
So there is a spreadsheet of all possible vultological signals Thefunction that check the most boxes is frame, then the next will be aux and so on. Developed or not depending on what the spreadsheet says.
Basically a combination of myopic Si with rigid simplistic Te.
exactly.
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Post by vincent on Jan 27, 2021 16:35:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm also probably mistaking Fe->Se "trouble" for general Fe.
Well, it's very common for NiFe to underestimate and understate their own Fe auxiliary.
Especially for young NiFe i think.
This is in large part due to the fact that we come to Fe from Ni frame. Which is very very different from coming to it from Si frame.
It's pretty hard to assess how good you are at "feeling the room" and surfing its vibe when you don't really feel like you are IN the room to begin with.
And yes, a lot of issues we would be tempted to interpret as Fe issues are actually Se (or Te) issues. The very fact that we interpret them as Fe issues is... a Fe auxiliary thing.
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Post by Roshan on Jan 28, 2021 16:25:15 GMT -5
Vultology used for identifying anything more than temperaments will probably lead to more trouble than it would help imo What do you mean by temperaments, ahmed?
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ahmed
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Post by ahmed on Jan 29, 2021 12:59:48 GMT -5
Vultology used for identifying anything more than temperaments will probably lead to more trouble than it would help imo What do you mean by temperaments, ahmed ? the four Ji/Je/Pi/Pe onesπ But it also seems Se polr does have its own way of sticking out, but I suppose that's more "energetic" than it would be vultological?
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Post by vincent on Jan 30, 2021 8:40:06 GMT -5
the four Ji/Je/Pi/Pe onesπ
Well, some of the signals he proposes for specific functions are valid, or very close to, i think.
Others would be"just Pi" or "just Je" indeed. Others would be slot specific things I even suspect that some those signals are "just Tx" or "just Fx" in specific rows...
so it's quite a mess.
Right.
I describe that as a "neither prey nor predator".
Se ignoring people can have that too, but with them you still get the impression they could "go prey" or "go predator" at any time. You still feel the potential unignoring.
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ahmed
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Post by ahmed on Feb 1, 2021 16:20:04 GMT -5
Te polr is still confusing.
Other than being absolutely terrible in optimizing for efficency, and refusing to take the bus or to change metro-lines because "waiting will slow me down..I have to start moving NOW." (I would rather just walk there, it doesn't matter if I'm late as long as I get away with it..which happens frequently enough:p)
Those seem like possbile Te+(Sx) problems rather than anything that would tie back to Ni. I don't see how a TeNi type would be supervising me, with what exactly?πΆπ
I might be lucky enough to not have had that experience so far.
wikisocion also has this on Te polr
"manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks."
The idea of "not trusting everything you read." Well, everyone with decent enough critical thinking would be doing that.π
It also gives the impression of Te polr types being completely closed off from any kind of information, same way as Ne polr is often written about as refusing any kind of new perspectives. It doesn't make much sense.
*At the very least, you need to have a solid enough framework/understanding before you decide to burn the bridges.*
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Post by vincent on Feb 1, 2021 16:29:08 GMT -5
Te polr is still confusing. Other than being absolutely terrible in optimizing for efficency,
Well, that's basically what Te polr IS.
Yes. Indeed.
I was get back to this wikisocion retarded definition soon. And to the supervision by TeNi too. (which, btw, wouldn't be that unlucky actually)
ttys !
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Post by vincent on Feb 3, 2021 13:27:31 GMT -5
Ok, let's start with this. wikisocion also has this on Te polr "manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks." The idea of "not trusting everything you read." Well, everyone with decent enough critical thinking would be doing that.π It also gives the impression of Te polr types being completely closed off from any kind of information, same way as Ne polr is often written about as refusing any kind of new perspectives. It doesn't make much sense. Well, first of all, this doesn't even read as the description of a PolR, at all.
PolR aren't mere dislikes and distrusts.
It's the non-processing and the misprocessing of a whole function, and their consequences.
And even if you try to read this as the description of a PolR, it would be the description of an introverted PolR, not of an extraverted one.
it's the introverted functions that "cristallize" informations, so it's the introverted PolR that comes off as being "closed off" from some kind of informations. It's the introverted polr that "never learn" and never "update their database", so to speak.
Extraverted functions are more about fluid use of whatever informations is avaiable. They are "skill based" rather than "knowledge based".
Extraverted polr failures are failures in application, adaptation and improvisation, not failure in understanding.
So yeah, that description completely miss the mark.
If anything, it would be a description of the positive side of Si polr ("don't trust the Source"). Certainly not a description of Te polr.
I guess it's the result of the tendencies of some socionics people to :
-water down how bad polr can be -"deduce" slot manifestations from function definitions that have already been "overcompressed" and turned into dead Si categories.
that... or it was the job of a FeNi who think he is NiFe.
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Post by vincent on Feb 3, 2021 13:53:35 GMT -5
Now about what Te polr actually is...
well it's essentially the avoidance of the extraverted side of T.
A major difficulty to deal with Things (as opposed to People) in real time, to interface with objects (as opposed to subjects) and to handle the complexity of systems in a fluid, improvisational and adaptative way. Even when you're just trying to explain something.
It manifests as a major problem with ordinality and sequentiality. a tendency to NOT see the steps, and to see them wrong.
Hence "being absolutely terrible in optimizing for efficency". And in NiFe's case, also VERY impractical.
tbcd
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Post by vincent on Feb 3, 2021 14:38:45 GMT -5
Now about TeNi supervision...
Why the hell would it be bad ?
Supervision done right is probably one of the most auspicious and positive intertype relationship of all.^
What supervision does for you is to help you with your polr through your main function (which is their auxiliary), in the most ego-syntonic way possible.
It can take many shapes and forms, depending on what the polr is, but in any case, it makes you more complete.
And it's huge.
Sure, it can get pretty bad when the supervisor is unhealthy and/or in shadow, especially if he get too close. But in most case, it's really up to us, the supervisee, to not try to reverse or negate it and to make (or rather let) it work.
Now yeah, TeNi and NiFe are both pretty rare, and have a tendency to dwell in different environments, so this specific supervision relationship doesn't occur that often. But believe me, it's really really good when it does.
During my first years in my job, one of the main administrative boss of the school was a TeNi woman.
She was feared by many. Because she was extremely uncompromising, unapologetically so, and could be VERY blunt and reactive. They warned me. In whispers. "Be sure you do that right or SHE will eat you alive".
Well, no, that's not how supervision works.
She basically treated me like a lost grandson who had been spoiled by his parents, never got a proper education, and deserved to get one.
or something close to that.
She retired, and was "replaced" by an apparently endless sucession of TeSi.
Who are all perfectly happy with letting me get away with my Te polr bs, with a smirk of their ugly Fe role.
But anyway, did you never got a glimpse of supervision by listening to Peterson ?
"Clean your room" works with me. Sometimes.
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Post by Roshan on Feb 5, 2021 4:18:22 GMT -5
Now about what Te polr actually is...
well it's essentially the avoidance of the extraverted side of T.
A major difficulty to deal with Things (as opposed to People) in real time, to interface with objects (as opposed to subjects) and to handle the complexity of systems in a fluid, improvisational and adaptative way. Even when you're just trying to explain something.
It manifests as a major problem with ordinality and sequentiality. a tendency to NOT see the steps, and to see them wrong.
The problem with ordinality and sequentiality is interesting because it may not occur with the exact same subject matter using the introverted orientation of the third row when it's developed, i.e not with Ti. For some reason the NiFe or SiFe will be perfectly capable of following the order (better than most Te people) as long as the process is internal. The problem comes with its articulation to the world. Somehow Ti happens more holistically; maybe a lot of it happens through picture, symbol, and spatial thinking? But when it comes time for the step by step/protocol-based articulation the Te PolR will get flustered and trip all over their tongue.
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