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Post by Roshan on Jul 13, 2020 16:32:55 GMT -5
Sorry, i forgot about that It's okay vincent. Way past clock struck midnight on that one. I'll be opening that part up by next week.
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 4:01:12 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 16, 2020 4:01:12 GMT -5
He starts to conceptualize all these sociopolitical strands in terms of something like "The Art of War". Yes, it IS very pragmatic, but it seems like too much of a fine-stranded web to be mainly Te; it seems like how Ti COULD go through instrumental Se (in order to come to a more longitudinal 'theory of everything' in Ni). Another dimension to this is that Styx conceives this "Art of War" to be a biological one (literally or metaphorically). "If I unleashed a virus on my enemy..." In this case we're in the realm of thought pathogens. This seems consistent with absolutely valued Si, which could be 'demonstrative' with TiSe. When the philo-anti-Semite goes (almost) full-blown Jews-are-pathogens mode, he may be demonstrating Si as well. I think?
At the very least, there seems to be a high correlation between shadow Si (Si 6th, Si polr in some configurations, Si frame in shadow mode) and "digust sensitivy".
That's what Jordan Peterson (very likely Si polr himself) is talking about here imo :
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 7:12:21 GMT -5
Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 7:12:21 GMT -5
So what do you think Hitler's c.t. was, vincent? And what do you mean by "Si frame in shadow mode"--Si first or fifth?
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 7:42:50 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 16, 2020 7:42:50 GMT -5
I was thinking about Si first.
People like Lynch.
The "lovecraftian" Si doms.
There seems to be a pattern of fascination for disgust among them.
About Hitler, my guess would be FeNi. There is a very strong argument for Si polr imo. Not only because of the correlation with the things Peterson mentions, but also because Mein Kampf is an hodge podge of historical hoghwash.
His weird relationship with Theodor Morrell and the sheer amount of drugs and meds he was taking daily too.
And if he was indeed Si polr, i would guess his interfacing was Fe frame with Te role, rather than the opposite. It's a bit tricky because most of the footages are very staged and theatrical speeches, but there he does seems to exhibit an extreme, caricatural case of Beta voice and Fe fist.
Gamma doesn't ring true for him anyway.
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Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 9:17:33 GMT -5
vincent , from my own delvings into this during and after the seemingly endless "Type Hitler" thread on eidb which I followed after I stopped posting there, Hitler had severe neurological damage due to being gassed in WWI. This almost certainly included early onset Parkinson's which causes extremely rigid (black and white) thinking. I became very tired of the thread and posted a 'shadow' "Why We Shouldn't Type Hitler" thread on the splinter board. I made the case that Hitler was 3 lead to show that any case (within limits) could be convincingly made because he was too sick to type conclusively. That said, c.t.-wise I agree FeNi does make sense. It accounts for the embedded illogicality, the pure passionate feelings trying to 'pass' for thought, being squeezed through a funnel of 'discernment' and coming out like toothpaste gunk at the rim of a badly contorted, indented tube. (Yes, I did read Mein Kampf as part of my 'delvings'). FeNi also accounts for the 'self-absorbed artist' of his youth--heavy shadowing to FiNe. Actually he never stopped shadowing. He was just seized by the collective (Fe)--The Public seized him--although it appears the reverse. In any case, e-wise the typing I eventually settled on (forever tentatively) for Hitler is very non-standard. Although I do agree with the more common 6 lead, I think he was triple attached and I don't even think he was counterflow. The only two stacks ever argued for him are so/sp and sx/so but I think he was dark social sp last, so an entirely porous, ungrounded, deeply attached perambulatory psyche until it hitches itself or gets hitched to its exteriorized, collective 'star'. In other words as "Fe" as it gets.
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 12:28:27 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 16, 2020 12:28:27 GMT -5
vincent , from my own delvings into this during and after the seemingly endless "Type Hitler" thread on eidb which I followed after I stopped posting there, Hitler had severe neurological damage due to being gassed in WWI. This almost certainly included early onset Parkinson's which causes extremely rigid (black and white) thinking. I became very tired of the thread and posted a 'shadow' "Why We Shouldn't Type Hitler" thread on the splinter board. I made the case that Hitler was 3 lead to show that any case (within limits) could be convincingly made because he was too sick to type conclusively. That said, c.t.-wise I agree FeNi does make sense. It accounts for the embedded illogicality, the pure passionate feelings trying to 'pass' for thought, being squeezed through a funnel of 'discernment' and coming out like toothpaste gunk at the rim of a badly contorted, indented tube. (Yes, I did read Mein Kampf as part of my 'delvings'). FeNi also accounts for the 'self-absorbed artist' of his youth--heavy shadowing to FiNe. Actually he never stopped shadowing. He was just seized by the collective (Fe)--The Public seized him--although it appears the reverse.
Right. There is lots of accounts of his ability to mesmerize and magnetize the crowd but it seems to me that he was gathering, amplifying and reflecting its energy. Mirroring it. Yes. That makes perfect sense to me.
But yeah, i agree that pretty much any typing of him should be forever tentative.
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Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 15:52:26 GMT -5
In any case, e-wise the typing I eventually settled on (forever tentatively) for Hitler is very non-standard. Although I do agree with the more common 6 lead, I think he was triple attached and I don't even think he was counterflow. The only two stacks ever argued for him are so/sp and sx/so but I think he was dark social sp last, so an entirely porous, ungrounded, deeply attached perambulatory psyche until it hitches itself or gets hitched to its exteriorized, collective 'star'. In other words as "Fe" as it gets. Oh, I meant this porous, perambulatory psyche is a combination of all the factors (stacking, fix and health level), not necessarily inherent to that stacking--or trifix--though there is a trend...And it occurs to me there's someone else who has this typing according to me but with a slightly different stacking, who I understand is FeNi according to Auburn and others. Someone also very mesmerizing who enthralls people and whips them up into a frenzy, consolidating a following with a dogma of über and untermenschen, while like Hitler being bizarrely just this side of 'unter' (Hitler's dark hair, part Jewish ancestry, being Austrian not German...he had to do the Anschluss first just to consolidate HIMSELF...) I'm talking about the fake sx/sp 4w5-5w4-8w7 who found out he was a 4 [sic] and immediately realized there were many millions of people in the world exactly like him, forever renounced the folly of his ways, and dedicated his life to appointing other people 4s, 5s, 7s, and/or 8s so they could be just like him and demote lesser people to their proper station--like Hitler, hitching his wagon to a preexisting body of thought and body politic with a collective yearning all based on a hierarchical structure. But again, this subterranean-venturing God of the Lyre is sx/sp, not so/sx in the sp/sx stream, and is level 6 not 8 'center of...gravity'. So Authoritarian Rebel not Paranoid Hysteric. btw I know three other triple attached Sixes with so/sx (two personally and quite well, one Richard Grannon, the life coach) who I'm pretty sure are also FeNi. I was very close to getting not only involved, but 'hitched' to the other two (being Sixes and my supervisors it should come as no surprise that this was all articulated... ). Now it seems three other so/sx triple attached Sixes, all very heavy on the gut component by comparison to the others--Alex Jones, Sargon of Akkad and the philo-anti-Semite--all seem to be panning out as SeTi. (I realized recently that TPAS isn't TiSe creative subtype but the reverse). The pseudo-Marlon Brando I was involved with for two years in my twenties was the same configuration, e- and ct-wise. Jones, TPAS and TPMB are all low health with phobic issues around social infection and disgust. TSMB was a French national from a village near Metz in Alsace Lorraine who identified very strongly as a German and like TPAS was also a PAS vincent. He was phobic about 'pathogens' of all shapes, sizes, and functions....
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Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 16:11:04 GMT -5
hmmm...I should try to do complete typings of all these people and compare them...to discern possible trends with the c.t. I can already say the FeNi ones are 4 and/or 1 heavier in the wing span.
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 16:30:11 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 16, 2020 16:30:11 GMT -5
That's very interesting.
There seems to be a trend of ct/enneagram correlations indeed.
fwiw and if i recall correctly, my first impression for the subterranean-venturing God of the Lyre, based on a few pics and a long and inane audio session, was TeSi. Or Ni polr, at least. But that might very well be wrong.
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Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 17:19:46 GMT -5
But that might very well be wrong.
And it could very well be right. Disclaimer, the Auburn typing and acceptance of it is hearsay. I'll try to look into it but there's really no reason to assume Auburn's typings are right. And at least by stacking, he's different from the others e-wise, so Fi in the upper stacks but Fe absolute valued could make sense. Also my supervisee makes more sense than my supervisor. This person would supervise me pray tell just how? In fact he may have caused me more unnecessary work than any single person over the years by sending out the basic mistakes Don made to colonize our little 'quadra' of the e-Universe like a parade float balloon Borg. If not for him I might still be able to talk sense into his (my former) 'e-partner'. But they will never let that e-typing go precisely because it's almost completely wrong and so 'they' became a bridge too far. You and I have spoken extensively, though not so much here, about how disintegrating TeSi will become clannish and thuggish (low Beta-ish) due to the Fe role and Se sixth of the shadow stack, and then how FiNe will attach to it and together they will throw Molotov cocktail parties. In this scenario that should be wifey. This is making some sense. I have to think about it. The two TeSi's I know best (personally) that I'm sure of are both phobic Ni, they're quite avoidant of real depth discernment (yes, it's a good word)--yet everything happens for a reason, one that is ultimately pink and fluffy and good. But one of these TeSi's, similar to The Person In Question (TPIQ), does bask in how dark and deep they are. The other really does not. This last one really would make Peter Pan and Wendy cookies all day if she could (including to the people at the hospice where she volunteers); the first one isn't that trite with the Ni phobia (not that volunteering in a hospice is trite, mind you). But TPIQ goes around grafittiing the walls of the world with Very Dark Quotes from Incredibly Famous Obscure Poets. Somehow I'm thinking of wallpaper<-->graffiti. The really phobic one is like putting up nursery and bright kitchen wallpaper all the time. TPIQ is grafittiing but it really comes to the same thing. It's a season in hell, yes indeedy. The other is in-between. The thing is all this wallpapering and/or grafittiing is consistent with "S", instrumental and demo. It's kind of like heads on a totem pole. They could be pink ponies, they could be black unicorns, they're still 'our ancestors and animals we worship and preserve'...while missing the meaning...riffing here...tbcd...FeNi and TeSi are both in supervision with me. I'd been thinking about posting about how Tim Black responds to Tucker Carlson (my supervisor and supervisee in adversarial superego relationship...). I should probably do that too...
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Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 17:40:36 GMT -5
What I mean by wallpaper, graffiti, and totem pole ponies as "S"-instrumental and demonstrative--is that it's mental furniture. Similar to David Lynch (SiFe jumper) saying "Thoughts are ideas". "Ideas are things." My own sister is probably TeSi too. She would definitely also make pink Peter Pan cookies all day if she could to keep things 'light' and 'positive'. There is an ongoing attempt to reification of 'positive ideas' with these three probable TeSi's I know quite well--with talismanic intent. If we say 'It's a nice day' enough it will be a statue big and strong, a guardian and preserver against the elements. Ideas will be solid, like a house. They will provide boundary and shelter (Si) that gives strength and power (Se).
They do it in varying degrees but they all do it quite a lot; and the cliché bouquets can get pretty cringey. TPIQ seems to do the opposite but really does not. I am beautiful, o mortals, like a dream of stone, yes indeedy, sweetie pie. Totem Wallpaper of the Ancestors--Baudelaire, Rimbaud, you know, the Dark Ones who if only they had had the Enneagram too would have seen the error of their ways...
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Styx
Jul 16, 2020 21:31:48 GMT -5
Amy likes this
Post by Roshan on Jul 16, 2020 21:31:48 GMT -5
What I mean by wallpaper, graffiti, and totem pole ponies as "S"-instrumental and demonstrative--is that it's mental furniture. Similar to David Lynch (SiFe jumper) saying " Thoughts are ideas". "Ideas are things." Anyway...so my impression is that the process of achieving Ne via Si is full of reification. The Ne is concretized: It's a world full of possibilities (because) there's a reason (Te) why we're here, so it's all good. Or if it isn't now it will be very soon. So think good thoughts because thoughts are things that talismanically usher in the Good Tomorrow. They carry the power and protection of the past and the ancestors. They are our furniture. And therein lies the Ni polr. To 'metabolize' Ni would be to let in the rot. It would just spoil everything. Which brings us back to what brought all this up: obsession with contamination. These people have it, it does seep out through the it's all good. Isn't that why in shadow mode they'll grab the Se sword and become 'freedom fighters' and lead the purge vincent ?
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Styx
Jul 17, 2020 3:43:06 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 17, 2020 3:43:06 GMT -5
Well, i'm not sure TeSi is right, but i'm pretty sure FeNi is wrong.
Him being your supervisor is out of the question.
Him being Ni auxiliary is out the question.
If it's not TeSi it might be FeSi or something else, but Ni is be gonna polr or "broken" in some way. I've heard enough to be positive about that at least.
Wallpaper - Graffiti makes a lot of sense.
Wallpaper is their "normal" metabolism, well-integrated into the delta empire. Graffiti is the low beta-ish version of the same essential thing, with more Fe and Se shadow component, and probably more desperation in Fi seeking.
This might also explain the dandy-ish tendencies exhibited by a lot of TeSi. I initially attributed them to Se demonstrative. But it's probably not just that. It's also billboarding. Decorum. Wallpapering/Graffiting of self-image.
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Styx
Jul 17, 2020 3:52:26 GMT -5
Roshan likes this
Post by vincent on Jul 17, 2020 3:52:26 GMT -5
What I mean by wallpaper, graffiti, and totem pole ponies as "S"-instrumental and demonstrative--is that it's mental furniture. Similar to David Lynch (SiFe jumper) saying " Thoughts are ideas". "Ideas are things." My own sister is probably TeSi too. She would definitely also make pink Peter Pan cookies all day if she could to keep things 'light' and 'positive'. There is an ongoing attempt to reification of 'positive ideas' with these three probable TeSi's I know quite well--with talismanic intent. If we say 'It's a nice day' enough it will be a statue big and strong, a guardian and preserver against the elements. Ideas will be solid, like a house. They will provide boundary and shelter (Si) that gives strength and power (Se). They do it in varying degrees but they all do it quite a lot; and the cliché bouquets can get pretty cringey. TPIQ seems to do the opposite but really does not. I am beautiful, o mortals, like a dream of stone, yes indeedy, sweetie pie. Totem Wallpaper of the Ancestors--Baudelaire, Rimbaud, you know, the Dark Ones who if only they had had the Enneagram too would have seen the error of their ways... Right.
And actually, those ancestors are not even their ancestors. Those Dark Ones won't be deltas most of the time, they will be primarily Gammas and Betas. Those TeSi disintegrate into low Beta-ish AND pseudo-gamma-ish at the same time. Ostentatiously pretending to be everything but Delta in a way.
Even when they are not "dark ones", those TeSi are very often syncretists without synthesis, collectors of references, name droppers, picking stuff here and there without rhyme nor reason, with a soft spot for the Exotic, and the Kitsch.
Realtors, Snake oil salesmen AND ancestors thieves.
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Styx
Jul 17, 2020 4:06:01 GMT -5
Post by vincent on Jul 17, 2020 4:06:01 GMT -5
What I mean by wallpaper, graffiti, and totem pole ponies as "S"-instrumental and demonstrative--is that it's mental furniture. Similar to David Lynch (SiFe jumper) saying " Thoughts are ideas". "Ideas are things." Anyway...so my impression is that the process of achieving Ne via Si is full of reification. The Ne is concretized: It's a world full of possibilities (because) there's a reason (Te) why we're here, so it's all good. Or if it isn't now it will be very soon. So think good thoughts because thoughts are things that talismanically usher in the Good Tomorrow. They carry the power and protection of the past and the ancestors. They are our furniture. And therein lies the Ni polr. To 'metabolize' Ni would be to let in the rot. It would just spoil everything. Which brings us back to what brought all this up: obsession with contamination. These people have it, it does seep out through the it's all good. Isn't that why in shadow mode they'll grab the Se sword and become 'freedom fighters' and lead the purge vincent ?
Yes, that sounds right to me.
And those with counterphobic Ni polr might not even need to be shadowing per se to take the sword. They will be attracted to FeNi in FiNe shadow, they will respond to the beating of the shamanic drum, and they will turn into obsessive-compulsive paragons of orthopraxy. And then, they just "do the job" as they are told.
I wouldn't be surprised if Eichmann was one of those for example. (And Arendt might very well be FiNe herself, which also fits the pattern)
We should probably look at westerners converted to salafism too. I bet we would find some of those TeSi there too.
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