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Post by Roshan on Jul 10, 2020 8:39:19 GMT -5
This popped up on YouTube. When PK, the guy in the 'mixed race couple' on our right, speaks at 3'12", he seems to reveal himself as an 8, The Challenger, rather than a 6 or 9w8 (these three types often being a close call for the lead).
(btw living in downtown Manhattan for the last four decades this conversation in 2020 is strange to me. We have mixed race couples everywhere and if anyone cares they certainly never show it).
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Post by Roshan on Jul 10, 2020 20:49:08 GMT -5
The reason why, with his simple statements at 3'12", PK struck me as 8 > 6 or 9w8 was precisely that they were so simple. In fact the sentiment (adversity is great, I thrive on the conflict being caused, it's good to toughen up) is also often expressed by 6 (especially 6w5) and/or 9w8. But PK seems to feel no need to either explain OR hold back from explaining. In other words, there is no added effort. Comfort with conflict seems to just be the base metabolism. It's the 'economy' of it all. Afterward, he never seems to waver from being very comfortable in his body-centeredness. There's no push/pull. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" was one of the mottos of Teddy Roosevelt, an 8 (apparently regarding foreign policy). The big stick is the 8 itself, the 'speak softly' is the between 2 and 5. And with integrating 8s (and/or very withdrawn ones), this can be very soft indeed.
And so I think PK is an 8 but as usual feel free to disagree.
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Post by vincent on Jul 11, 2020 7:33:04 GMT -5
The reason why, with his simple statements at 3'12", PK struck me as 8 > 6 or 9w8 was precisely that they were so simple. In fact the sentiment (adversity is great, I thrive on the conflict being caused, it's good to toughen up) is also often expressed by 6 (especially 6w5) and/or 9w8. But PK seems to feel no need to either explain OR hold back from explaining. In other words, there is no added effort. Comfort with conflict just seems to just be the base metabolism. It's the 'economy' of it all. Afterward, he never seems to waver from being very comfortable in his body-centeredness. There's no push/pull. "Speak softly and carry a big stick" was one of the mottos of Teddy Roosevelt, an 8 (apparently regarding foreign policy). The big stick is the 8 itself, the 'speak softly' is the between 2 and 5. And with integrating 8s (and/or very withdrawn ones), this can be very soft indeed. And so I think PK is an 8 but as usual feel free to disagree.
Yes i agree. There is no hint of doubt or over/under-assertion at all
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Post by Roshan on Jul 11, 2020 16:17:09 GMT -5
On the other hand I think Jericho Green, a Trump supporter, is 6 with heavy 8 fix. Specifically so/SP 6w5-8w9-3w2. Limits setting > Laying Trips. Even just the cadence and intonation of the voice sets limits. With this stacking 6 between 3 and 9 is huge dogmatic 'display' at the 6 L6 Authoritarain Rebel. I believe this configuration is the most Eightish Six.
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adrian
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 222
Enneagram Core Fix: 2w1
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Post by adrian on Sept 16, 2020 4:06:22 GMT -5
I feel the more electronic and abstracted modernity becomes, the more an 'image' of 'being' substitutes for power in the public eye (now Panopticon), the less likely you will be to encounter 8s there. Real power, real challenge, lies behind the veil. Especially behind the 'liberal veil'. But the Prosperity Gospel Preachers are really carving their own turf and they know damn well what they're doing is borderline illegal, so this is one place it seems (to me) they do abound in the public eye now. You also have the Trumps and Bannons emerging to oppose this dilution of 'Being'. But I suspect the political 8s these days are more likely to be found among the 'donors' we never see that politicians are accountable to than the politicians themselves. And the fortunes of those donors are more likely to be made in, say, the mining of the rare metals needed to make the devices we use than in their actual use. Gates, Jobs, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Theil, Musk, the Silicon Valley celebrities, I've not even called an actual 8 fix yet. It’s easy to see how prosperity preachers lean towards 8, specifically 8 with a lateral movement to 2. Here, 8 uses the tools of 2 - the emotional shepherding, the promise of plenitude (2 is connected to plenitude and the introduction of multiplicity a la @anthony's video on Plotinus), and big heart energy while self-interestedly exploiting their flock. As you alluded to above, it’s one of the few avenues where 8s can explicitly exert power over others (via financial dependence and emotional manipulation). It’s a fully embodied expression of being. The preacher is in full possession, money and soul, of their followers. I find the phenomenon of prosperity preachers fascinating because it highlights a deep contradiction within our culture. The American Dream is built upon the Protestant Work Ethic, the belief that God’s providence will be bestowed upon you if you work enough. Through your hard work, God will reward you with riches. The giving away of one’s money to a preacher is such an expedient way of attaining that providence. So where does the contradiction come in? To me, on the part of the money giver, there seems to be an unconscious disillusionment with the belief of the Protestant Work Ethic while also back-boning on it. "I’ve been working hard all of life yet why am I not rich? If I give my hard earned money up to God, then I’ll finally be rich. My hard work and sacrifice will finally be rewarded." I think these prosperity preachers have a cynical understanding of this contradiction.
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Post by Roshan on Sept 17, 2020 10:11:11 GMT -5
It’s easy to see how prosperity preachers lean towards 8, specifically 8 with a lateral movement to 2. Here, 8 uses the tools of 2 - the emotional shepherding, the promise of plenitude (2 is connected to plenitude and the introduction of multiplicity a la @anthony's video on Plotinus), and big heart energy while self-interestedly exploiting their flock. As you alluded to above, it’s one of the few avenues where 8s can explicitly exert power over others (via financial dependence and emotional manipulation). It’s a fully embodied expression of being. The preacher is in full possession, money and soul, of their followers. Hmmm....well, I'm not really so sure I alluded to the 2 factor of the need for specifically interpersonal power over others. That really comes from you, and very astute, too.
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Post by Roshan on Sept 17, 2020 10:35:11 GMT -5
I find the phenomenon of prosperity preachers fascinating because it highlights a deep contradiction within our culture. The American Dream is built upon the Protestant Work Ethic, the belief that God’s providence will be bestowed upon you if you work enough. Through your hard work, God will reward you with riches. The giving away of one’s money to a preacher is such an expedient way of attaining that providence. So where does the contradiction come in? To me, on the part of the money giver, there seems to be an unconscious disillusionment with the belief of the Protestant Work Ethic while also back-boning on it. "I’ve been working hard all of life yet why am I not rich? If I give my hard earned money up to God, then I’ll finally be rich. My hard work and sacrifice will finally be rewarded." I think these prosperity preachers have a cynical understanding of this contradiction. The Protestant Work Ethic factor is a little tricky. First, according to Weber, the trick is souls are predestined for salvation or not, so the work ethic is something that kicks in subconsciously to prove one is one of the chosen for salvation. So there's already a huge contradiction in it. Also this work ethic reigned supreme in the Puritan foundations of the country and it's very Oneish and Sixish (ethics via labor) but this got progressively lost over time. Late capitalism here became much more Threeish (and Eightish for the Robber Barons) but with the dawn of the advertising era it became Sevenish. (Hollywood/"Mad Men"). Neoliberal culture is 3/7ish. But the people in these flocks aren't that. They seem very 6/9ish actually, and the leaders very heavy 8w7/3, who then posture on an atavistic One 'soapbox' factor. These leaders are a combination of Robber Baron and 'Madison Avenue' advertising world. So yeah, the flock leaders have a cynical understanding of the flock's deeply rooted equation of 'God and money', and also of the fundamental contradiction in Protestant doctrine and how subconsciously it has to operate to work at all. So they dish out a strident caricature of One compliancy that somehow acts as lure to get this Six to move to 3 and 7 wing and cough up the cash with and for 'expedience' as you note. Or...something like that...
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Post by Roshan on Sept 17, 2020 11:02:21 GMT -5
Protestantism historically (and also Sunni Islam though not Shia) can be viewed as a divestment of 'pagan' elements from Christianity and a return to its OT roots. This is paradoxically in a way a return to a more irrational god because the OT god is testy, arbitrary and willful. His austerity and demand for discipline are Oneish but He doesn't have to be 'accountable'. Only we do. The introduction of the loving Son and the principle of Mercy, though they aren't head-centered, make the Abrahamic tradition more rational in a way. Once you establish predestination, you're really in the realm of utter nonsense in a way.
This is the big contradiction in Protestantism itself. And Prosperity Gospel preachers do exploit it. I really don't think you could get away with this kind of nonsense in Catholicism or the Orthodox Churches.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 14, 2020 18:32:16 GMT -5
I stumbled upon a video of an 8 therapist with integrated 2 and 5 teaching people how to use their own 5 to withdraw, disengage from the relational center, truly parsimoniously, in order to stop feeding a dynamic with a narcissist.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 15, 2020 15:39:28 GMT -5
This 8, Dr. Les Carter, really illustrates why it's so hard to settle on 8 fix last in a trifix. Once 8 starts to be healthy (or if they have heavy 5 component), they tend to speak very softly while carrying the big stick; then if (like him) they have double line to 9 by 6 and 3, or close to it, it can be impossible to say with any certainty whether the gut last is 8w9 or 9w8. And of course, if you're looking at a 7w8 lead, an so/sp, a 2 or 5 lead with line to 8, etc. it can also be really hard to tell.
But since his 8 leads, you can see (I hope) how barebones and straightforward he is--still blunt though infused with tact, how he keeps coming back to the core issue of self-reliance on your own character, and how he makes no bones about saying "I want this for you" as "The Leader", sitting fully in his sense of his own character. btw I'm just putting this one up because it's the last one that played as I listened to him while fixing up the apartment.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 15, 2020 15:47:15 GMT -5
But this one was like the jewel in the crown of 8.
The one factor is "You are you. You get to decide". Who do you want to be? Are you or are you not your own person? Do you or don't you want to have character?
That's it. Case closed.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 15, 2020 16:02:42 GMT -5
btw what is his ct? vincent ? anyone? He has the effect on me of FeNi (supervisor) though he doesn't seem to have that emotional lability/permeability. Though Auburn has exemplars of FeNi that don't...and his Te really does seem to fit role more than frame. "One Factor That...", etc.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 15, 2020 16:08:13 GMT -5
Might he be a folksy kind of SeFi or...something? I mean thinking about it, it's hard to see his Se as 'agenda' rather than 'just there' vincent.
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Post by Roshan on Dec 15, 2020 16:17:11 GMT -5
btw he did mention in one video that he learned in establishing boundaries basically what sounded like not 'laying trips' on people (talking style 8), including in his own practice.
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Post by vincent on Dec 15, 2020 16:26:03 GMT -5
I listened to the second video and part of the first one so far, and i was wondering about his ct too.
I'm not sure yet.
My first impression was FeNi. Then i considered TeNi, maybe with "found Fi".
But i don't think he can be Si polr.
Then i considered SeTi, but Fi polr seems impossible too.
So yeah, maybe SeFi.
I feel a bit supervised too, and quite seduced too.
I guess that could be semi-duality.
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