anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Apr 5, 2020 8:34:34 GMT -5
Not only from his writings, but in his videos he repeatedly refers to Narcissists as having "stagnated" somewhere between ages 4 and 9 - inhibiting things like sexual orientation, developed gender identity, etc. But ultimately, especially from what I can tell with him, there seems to be a desire to hold onto the childhood and a refusal to "grow up" because something integral to their development before age 9 didn't happen for them - this made me wonder if there was a correlation between this and the 4s unconscious desire to move back in time, protecting themselves from suffering through the aftermath of a "tragedy." The 8 space wormholes the 4 space, and in lots of the literature about 8, you can find mentionings of 8s believing they have lost a sense of innocence during childhood(though also this is often talked about with the 8s compensation for this loss through protection of that innocence in others). 2 connects 4 and 8. Obviously I'm not saying that age-regression would be particular to 4<-->2<-->8, though I just wonder if those types do have a stronger reversion to distinctive, childlike coping mechanisms during disintegration, due to this "connection" with origin and the past.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 5, 2020 8:46:20 GMT -5
At times, his speech style is very close to the "knower tone" that is common in Ni doms. Defining and framing things in a very abstract, absolute (and Si-less btw) way. But it seems to me that he is talking about that metaphysical realm (and also with us), rather than " from" it, if that makes sense. This is the thing, and what's most irksome about him (in a sea of irksomenesses). I am sure that my archivist Si sucks more than his potentially because my factoid memory is so horrible. All I retain is patterns; Internet both helps and hurts in that it makes factoid retrieval easier but it also makes me lose Te (getting Ni into real time). In short, my brain is made of Swiss cheese, but I don't commit to archiving unless it's in a very finite context where it's manageable. This is part of why my output is so slim. I also don't willingly falsify the archive. Which is a lot of why I prefer making art or teaching something for the sake of itself--such as languages--rather than to prove something about it Proving would necessitate documenting the archive and it always seems like it would take all eternity to satisfactorily substantiate my claims. So when I've been asked to write for political sites I've declined; also I much prefer elaborating on Enneagram in exchanges (process form). I know my Si is selective, unreliable, I know a lot of it sucks, I also know I can easily fall into confabulation. And so I avoid putting myself in situations where I'll be responsible for making proclamations about the Si archive. But with all Vaknin's T, he should be able to retrieve the catalogue too. But Vaknin seems to revel in futzing with the Si archive just to see how much he can get away with. This does seem to be a difference between "Si-less" Ni dom NiTe and "Si-polr" TeNi. My Si sucks until it doesn't. The areas where it shows up as role are splotchy and specific. If I have to do it in other areas I will circumscribe parameters to do it well or I will delegate it. Sam's 'point of least resistance' seems to be to do whatever the fuck he wants with it.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 5, 2020 8:53:38 GMT -5
Those outrageous claims can't be Si role and Ne ignoring. It has to be weaponized Ne (about authorship again) and Si polr. Again, here is an explanation for why he does this to the aspects of Si--Archiving--which ( I think) his prodigious T with instrumental Ni should very easily be able to pinch hit for. I don't dispute that the actual physical aspects of Si he just sucks at, and far more than I do btw.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 5, 2020 20:11:12 GMT -5
Not only from his writings, but in his videos he repeatedly refers to Narcissists as having "stagnated" somewhere between ages 4 and 9 - inhibiting things like sexual orientation, developed gender identity, etc. But ultimately, especially from what I can tell with him, there seems to be a desire to hold onto the childhood and a refusal to "grow up" because something integral to their development before age 9 didn't happen for them - this made me wonder if there was a correlation between this and the 4s unconscious desire to move back in time, protecting themselves from suffering through the aftermath of a "tragedy." The 8 space wormholes the 4 space, and in lots of the literature about 8, you can find mentionings of 8s believing they have lost a sense of innocence during childhood(though also this is often talked about with the 8s compensation for this loss through protection of that innocence in others). 2 connects 4 and 8. Obviously I'm not saying that age-regression would be particular to 4<-->2<-->8, though I just wonder if those types do have a stronger reversion to distinctive, childlike coping mechanisms during disintegration, due to this "connection" with origin and the past. Sorry, I lost the draft I was working on so I'll just start with this thought: 8 more commonly disintegrates to Five and integrates to Two. Of course there can also be disintegration to the usual point of integration, but if you're going to talk about 8 disintegrating to 2, then why not 4 disintegrating to 1, which is usually seen as the least childish of all the energies? Also, 2 in general is the Nurturing Mother energy. 8 Strong Father needs to integrate Nurturing Mother but Nurturing Mother 2 usually cannot integrate Strong Father until it first integrates the Dark Feminine (4). So Four is traditionally growth point for Two. No news there, I'm sure; just how do you reconcile this with your schema?
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Apr 5, 2020 20:54:54 GMT -5
For disintegration, as far as I've seen it, the core defense mechanisms of the disintegrating type(not the point of disintegration) are enhanced - however, the person starts to take upon the mechanisms of the disintegration point, but ultimately towards the ends of the 'core' type(the type disintegrating, not the disintegration points) and it's already employed defense mechanisms. This is fundamentally distinctive from the dynamics of the disintegrating point itself, which is why you're much less likely to find disintegrating 1s or 5s chucking bibles and lamps at peoples heads, or bullying them into submission through size or power - though with a disintegrating 8(to five), or a 4(to 1), the person may ostensibly utilize the defense mechanisms of the disintegration point, say avarice or "self-control," but I think you're more likely to see fluctuations and inconsistencies in the disintegrating type's(again, not point of disintegration) ability to maintain the associated behaviors, since it's merely a compensation.
That being said, the two ends of the shame triad(2 and 4), with their relative lack of "mirroring" compared to a 3, are more likely to overtly seek compensation for their feelings of shame in the manner more typically associated with age-regression behaviors(obvious entitlement, histrionic emotionalism('terrible twos,' perhaps), etc - and given that 4 is connected to 2, which is connected to 8, the lusty component of 8 in disintegration is more likely to bring about the rage/aggression/bullying tactics and the impatient, demanding, impulsive nature associated with children. Also, it's worth reiterating that 8 is 'connected' to the shame triad through 2. The archetypal energies, though present, will be acted out in a warped manner.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 5, 2020 21:30:39 GMT -5
however, the person starts to take upon the mechanisms of the disintegration point, but ultimately towards the ends of the 'core' type and it's already employed defense mechanisms. I know you mean 'take up' or 'take on', but I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you mean by 'toward the ends of the core type'.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Apr 5, 2020 21:37:10 GMT -5
A 4 would disintegrate to 1 from a buildup of resentment due to shame, not an imperfect or unjust world(compelling a 1 to disintegrate) - 4 disintegrates to 1 to support 4.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 12, 2020 17:05:52 GMT -5
I'll get back to other strands of this convo. But I'd like to ask for now when you have time, vincent , if you had only seen this video of Vaknin's what would you characterize as Si polr in it--other than perhaps his strong Se dwarfing Si allowing himself to go physically to seed? Of course other opinions are very welcome but I'm trying to get a handle on vincent's 'system'. tbc he says at one time he studied medicine but got no degree in it and his PhD's are in physics and philosophy-- and not from 'degree mills', he vehemently insists.
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Post by vincent on Apr 13, 2020 11:14:31 GMT -5
Ok I'll rewatch it soon. tbcd.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 13, 2020 12:49:17 GMT -5
It's a new one!
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Post by vincent on Apr 14, 2020 11:55:09 GMT -5
It's a new one!
Oops my bad.
I managed to listen to the first 15 minutes before i got interrupted.
here is what i see for now :
That thing with the glass of water at the beginning is quite weird. It seems like an Si effort of some sort, but it's so mechanical it shines by its absence of actual Si. He doesn't even seem to actually enjoy it himself.
He criticizes the projection revision of the university of Washington by saying "either the models has been used innaproprietely or there has been a massive change in trends".
For him, it's either Te incompetence or actual Se change.
It doesn't seem to occur to him that this kind of revision happens all the time for more legitimate reasons : Ti improvment (better models) or Si development (more accurate datas, leading to more accurate results).
Sounds like Ti ignoring / Si polr combo to me.
Then he tells us he think covid will end up being about as lethal as a regular season of the flu.
Without any kind of argument or justification. Forget all the incompetent sources. He is the Competent Source.
(FWIW, here in France, covid19 already beat the flu by a comfortable margin)
Then he looks at Sweden and scandinavian countries. He gives specific numbers and figures. Which start sounding a lot like actual Si. But he only does this to show that this is all an optical illusion (because the epidemy started earlier in Sweden).
This is all shadows on the Cave walls. Don' trust them.
Nx patterns and predictions over Si appearances.
Later on, his critics of conspiracy theories sounds a lot like Te over boh Ni and Si.
We see patterns where there is none, connects dots that should not be connected. We wrongly interpret pseudo-facts.
Basically, we suck at discerning, either with intuition or sensing.
We must think better.
He seems to be drawn toward fields that suffers from massive scarcity of datas (epidemiology, conspiracy theory topics), and his answer is always more competence. Not more datas and factual accuracy.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 14, 2020 12:17:35 GMT -5
It's a new one!
Oops my bad.
I managed to listen to the first 15 minutes before i got interrupted.
here is what i see for now :
That thing with the glass of water at the beginning is quite weird. It seems like an Si effort of some sort, but it's so mechanical it shines by its absence of actual Si. He doesn't even seem to actually enjoy it himself. Oh, the glass of water is because last week because, as he recounted in a previous video, he drank a glass of water on camera but a people on the Net were saying that it was vodka. As he tells it he was unable to put a stop to this rumor and now he is basking in the anhedonic drama of it all. He is proving how beneath contempt the rumor-mongers are. For all we know it was one person saying this in a youtube comment with two likes. But this I suspect is Sam's Fe role. You get to be superior with him because you can tell yourself you always knew it was water.
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Post by Roshan on Apr 14, 2020 12:21:20 GMT -5
Ayn Rand did something similar to this.
You knew by your choosing her to not suffer fools loudly that you were one of the Elect.
I mean I guess it's kind of a gamma thing.
An 'alpha' gamma (in the colloquial sense of the word--a gamma top dog).
And Ayn Rand was which ct?
FiSe creative subtype perhaps ?
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Post by vincent on Apr 14, 2020 12:37:26 GMT -5
Oops my bad.
I managed to listen to the first 15 minutes before i got interrupted.
here is what i see for now :
That thing with the glass of water at the beginning is quite weird. It seems like an Si effort of some sort, but it's so mechanical it shines by its absence of actual Si. He doesn't even seem to actually enjoy it himself. Oh, the glass of water is because last week because, as he recounted in a previous video, he drank a glass of water on camera but a people on the Net were saying that it was vodka. As he tells it he was unable to put a stop to this rumor and now he is basking in the anhedonic drama of it all. He is proving how beneath contempt the rumor-mongers are. For all we know it was one person saying this in a youtube comment with two likes. But this I suspect is Sam's Fe role. You get to be superior with him because you can tell yourself you always knew it was water.
Oh i see.
It makes it even more Si polrish btw. Because he does it without any direct mention of the episode in question, like an absolute statement about Water and Nature.
Without your Si role telling me the story, i would have never guessed.
I would have been left with the impression he was very satisfied by something, and that this something had nothing to do with a glass of water.
What he does instead is a weird allusion to that episodic context, talking about the mention of alcoholism as an addiction in the diagnostic manual.
As if he HAD to frame the whole thing in Te terms, one way or another.
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Post by vincent on Apr 14, 2020 12:44:11 GMT -5
Ayn Rand did something similar to this. You knew by your choosing her to not suffer fools loudly that you were one of the Elect. I mean I guess it's kind of a gamma thing. An 'alpha' gamma (in the colloquial sense of the word--a gamma top dog). And Ayn Rand was which ct? FiSe creative subtype perhaps ?
I'm not sure at all of Any Rand ct actually. Most of my knowledge about her is second-hand at best, often from sources that probably misrepresent her in some way.
I would have to look at her to make an actual guess.
But this kind of power move is basically pure Te + Se, so it would be TeNi if absolute value or FiSe creative subtype is relative value.
Another possibility would be TeSi, and then it would be demonstrative Se.
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