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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 17:36:28 GMT -5
Now he is watching everybody panic over a pandemic that he is certainly right is being mishandled and the worse pandemic is that he still can't find his intense internal feelings and values and neither can they. So he is accepting that the ACT (Te/Se) of having made this series is as close as he's going to get. He also accepts that the very culture he built, the online psychology world, for finding Fi, the Internet culture, is doing more and more to destroy it. That Internet is making narcissism soar is a huge theme of his recent work.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 17:44:35 GMT -5
Right. But would you introduce a video, even to make that kind of statement, in this specific way ? Yes, I definitely could feel propelled to introduce a video in the exact same way if it were a beginning, an ending, or a transitional video to a brand new phase of my work. I could easily see myself saying I am (or have been) Roshan and I took the eidb materials to the next level with S., take it or leave it if I were: saying goodbye; announcing a new project; changing my name; etc. The difference is that he is doing it to find Fi through looking at what he has accomplished (since what he absolutely values IS accomplishments--Te/Se). I would be doing it for what I absolutely value--the points in the suspension bridges, the links in the chain, both temporal (Ni) and affective (Fi). I would be seeking the power OF realization (Se) THROUGH this declaration.
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Post by vincent on Mar 26, 2020 17:46:49 GMT -5
Right. But would you introduce a video, even to make that kind of statement, in this specific way ? Yes, I definitely could feel propelled to introduce a video in the exact same way if it were a beginning, an ending, or a transitional video to a brand new phase of my work. I could easily see myself saying I am or have been Roshan and I took the eidb materials to the next level with S., take it or leave it if: I were saying goodbye; announcing a new project; changing my name; etc. The difference is that he is doing it to find Fi through looking at what he has accomplished (since what he absolutely values IS accomplishments--Te/Se). I would be doing it for what I absolutely value--the points in the suspension bridges, the links in the chain, both temporal (Ni) and affective (Fi). I would be seeking the power OF realization (Se) THROUGH this declaration.
Ok, that makes perfect sense.
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Post by vincent on Mar 26, 2020 17:47:59 GMT -5
Everything he says after the 9 min mark (give or take) really sounds like Fi seeking indeed
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 17:48:05 GMT -5
He is doing this to find himself (Fi) through his accomplishments/realizations.
I would be doing it to create an accomplishment (Se) through this declaration of myself.
Anyway he's way too powerful to be Se seeking.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 17:49:47 GMT -5
Everything he says after the 9 min mark (give or take) really sounds like Fi seeking indeed Yeah, see that's the thing. It's not so obvious at first if he's the creative subtype of TeNi or of NiTe but it gets more and more Fi seeking as it goes on.
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Post by vincent on Mar 26, 2020 17:56:33 GMT -5
At times, his speech style is very close to the "knower tone" that is common in Ni doms. Defining and framing things in a very abstract, absolute (and Si-less btw) way. But it seems to me that he is talking about that metaphysical realm (and also with us), rather than " from" it, if that makes sense. I think you're right about Ni subtype.
I will have to rewatch that video more carefully to check for Ti ignoring hints. i'm too tired for that right now.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 18:00:31 GMT -5
The very organic way he adress his imaginary listener, answering in advance possible reactions and objections (yhings like "yes, there is actually catastrophy theories" or "you all yell in unisson") points toward absolute value Te and interfacing dominance, imo. Yeah, well as I said early on (which you may or may not have read yet since you want to do cold typings first), he's a diagnosed narcissist with sociopathic tendencies who did time in prison for securities fraud and when he got out of prison turned his now diagnosed disorder into the new cash cow. He has to be an interfacer and read people very well in order to be that exploitative. At the same time he wants to break out of his shell (Fi seeking). But it also seems like he can't resist putting in fraudulences among his brilliances to see how many people will call him out--such as outrageously claiming that he coined the term 'narcissistic supplies', which dates back to Otto Fenichel in Freud's inner circle in the 30s. I have called him out twice on this so far. I will probably do it again. Haven't seen anyone else do it yet.
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Post by vincent on Mar 26, 2020 18:10:47 GMT -5
I started with the last video you posted. I haven't read or watched the rest yet. But i will.
Those outrageous claims can't be Si role and Ne ignoring. It has to be weaponized Ne (about authorship again) and Si polr.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 18:15:31 GMT -5
I started with the last video you posted. I haven't read or watched the rest yet. But i will. Those outrageous claims can't be Si role and Ne ignoring. It has to be weaponized Ne (about authorship again) and Si polr. Right. Despite his being a math/science guy and me being so far from that I find Sam Vaknin to be extremely close to me in the way he uses intuition. But he has to be TeNi creative subtype. I just wanted to check this and then to hopefully have a more refined discussion about the implications of this, the fine points, for which reason I posted some of my personal impressions of his schtick in the second video. So thanks and tbct'd.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 18:52:14 GMT -5
Oh, and there is also another issue vincent . He has--or anyway some years ago he had--this thing about how since psychology came out of philosophy it must return to it in order to be effective. Philosophy has been lost, he would go on, and psychology must recover it to teach us how to think clearly and have a coherent world view and so on. However he also went on about how he was stuck in his narcissism and once a narcissist always a narcissist and all a narcissist really can do is adapt (with a pessismism similar to Freud's in Civilization and its Discontents). I recall, being a bit younger and pinker and far more enthusiastic about the promise of this medium, that I made an impassioned but well-structured argument and plea for him to incorporate some kind of neo-Reichian therapy that deals directly with how trauma is caught in the physical body, and/or to take up yoga or martial arts or some other physical art, meditation, etc. to get out of his head--since if he was still a narcissist this head approach of philosophy as psychology, while very valuable as a leg of the tripod, was clearly not enough. He did not reply and maybe he didn't see it but , narcissist that he is, he probably at least scans his comments and that was a long one. But even if he didn't I hardly said anything he wouldn't have come across himself in his travels about the mind-body connection and its application in therapeutic modalities. In retrospect, this all seems easily Si polr of him and NOT seeking of any sort of S. Because if you were actually seeking S and you were a psychologist who was that tormented, at some point you would have looked into those mind-body practices. Paradoxically, the reason he hasn't is that he does absolutely value Se as agenda, so he just gets his Se 'kicks' from using his intuition to impose his Te competency on situations for power. What he delegates is Fi--he gets this from his boardies (when he ran the boards) and his patients, real and hypothetical audience, and also his long-suffering wife. IF he had to delegate Se, as intelligent as he is, at some point I think he would have inevitably seen it as outside his own head. But for Sam Vaknin, author of Malignant Narcissism, take him or leave him, pummeling his client-fans with his Very High IQ and his unique position as the global narcissist expert on narcissism--the active narcissist--is the power trip.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 26, 2020 19:10:09 GMT -5
I know, I know, cute right? Me beseeching this scaly Mephistophelian philosopher lizard king to like do downward dog or something to breathe and open his heart chakra. I'm a Six. It was endearing.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 27, 2020 9:20:56 GMT -5
Edited out
wait
I'm having trouble following what he's doing here. It's very weird.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 27, 2020 16:17:30 GMT -5
Ooookay... I'm mostly interested in the opening of this video. First of all he sounds like a very serious person and speaks with great gravitas. You just wouldn't think to really question him. But. So. In response to being asked how he found out he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, he says that three times he 'hit rock bottom' and 'was diagnosed by a qualified mental health practitioner' with NPD. The third time he felt he "had to find out what this is and began to search for information" but "was flabbergasted to discover there was nothing on the topic. Literally nothing". He then immediately goes on to mention Lowen's and Kohut's books. Can we get it straight that for him 'literally' should literally mean 'literally", due to his age and his speaking as an 'expert' about 'experts'. First having clarified that NPD only became a diagnosis in the DSM in 1980, which is "very recent, in scholarly terms" to explicate the paucity of sources in the 90s, he dismisses Lowen's book for being 'a popular colloquial discourse' but Kohut's for being 'totally inaccessible, arcane language, no one understood anything, hopefully the author did because presumably no one else did, the guy was Kohut, he was a very famous psychologist and so on". So there was 'no help' and he "had literally to invent the language' with the goal of understanding himself through 'introspection', while having no aspirations to become an 'authority'. "This language later became widely accepted and now it's part of the scholarly discourse but at the time I had to invent it". Once invented, he went to the young Internet (presumably still aspirationless) to find 'like-minded sufferers', but first just the victims of narcissists 'would come forth'. Within less than a year he had '20,000 members', but he doesn't say of what, though he does add in that it was 1997 to clarify what a staggeringly high number that was then. After four years it was 60,000, and there might even have been a million when he finally says 'groups'-there were many groups because of his original one or ones, he implies, and 'to this day there are dozens of groups' of victims of narcissism online. 'Gradually' the sufferers came forth so he had 'access to narcissists and began to cull up their experiences' and to 'systematize' it; then he 'started to correspond with therapists, social workers, the authorities and so on". So he can now proudly say, "Sixteen years later I have this humungous data base with everything I believe there is to know about this disorder" and "it became clear to me at least that narcissism isn't only a mental health issue but has profound cultural and social dimensions" and that "narcissists tend to gravitate to certain professions", etc. Ooookay soooo....it's under six minutes, and do I even have to deconstruct this. Yeah, kind of I do. He fails to mention that it was Kohut himself who coined the term "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" in 1968. and while he dismisses his book as too academic (probably "The Analysis of the Self: A Systematic Approach to the Psychoanalytic Treatment of Narcissistic Personality Disorders",1971, not 74), Lowen's is too pop psych. (Lowen wrote "Narcissism: The Denial of the True Self"in 1984 and he doesn't mention that he was a psychiatrist who studied under Wilhelm Reich and developed Bioenergetics). But if Vaknin didn't like those, there were other books he could have gone to. For instance, he could have gone to the cultural theorist Christopher Lasch's 1979 "The Culture of Narcissism", which I read when it came out. I can't remember if Lasch only used the Freudians or if he was also influenced by neo-Freudians like Kohut, but he definitely thrust the 'profound cultural and social dimensions' of narcissism into the public awareness because that book was a best-seller. And it's not densely academic or poppy either. If he didn't like Lasch, he could have gone to neo-Freudian Object Relations psychiatrist James F. Masterson's 1981 "The Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders" or if he found that too theoretical, he could have used Masterson's 1988 "The Search for the Real Self: Unmasking the Personality Disorders of Our Age, written for a general readership. This is really annoying me. I never read Masterson but even wiki mentions his being quoted in the New York Times in the 80's as an expert on narcissism such that high profile people sought him out for therapy. Because this is the way it was and I mean, I could accept that being Israeli and living in Eastern Europe, in the early days of the Internet Vaknin somehow missed all the hullabaloo that went on over here about narcissism and its societal dimensions in the 80's--if he weren't himself referencing the DSM, which is the manual of the American Psychiatric Association, which isn't the only standard globally. But okay, let's assume somehow he just missed it anyway. It's just inconceivable that sixteen years later, he never came across Lasch or Masterson, but there he is in 2014 insisting the literature existing in the 90s was exactly what he thought it was then. How can this be. Not to mention that, considering Kohut's book too oppressively dense, he doesn't seem to go into the actual psychiatric articles at all. Ever. I guess because also too dense. But he's influenced the actual psychiatric canon, which he hasn't read. I mean this actually makes no sense. You don't have to explain it to me, vincent . It is massively Ti ignoring. And I assume this is what makes him Si polr and me Si role too. That I find what he's doing so disturbing that I feel I have to set the record straight even if only five people read it? I mean this is someone who really doesn't care about the tradition. Just about predating off of it.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 27, 2020 16:37:38 GMT -5
Like I kind of did not realize just how much of a fraud he is.
I mean, that "narcissists tend to gravitate to certain professions" is a common place in psychiatry and psychology. He didn't discover this, he isn't responsible for disseminating this, and no one outside of social media is crediting him with any contributions to the field. And yet he's managed to cobble a career out of this AND have a stream of 'supplies'.
So his Ni is REALLY a tool.
What's so amazing though is that for all this, when his Ni really gets cooking, he STILL comes up with fascinating insights, and they're still a hodgepodge of things original and things stolen--and I GUESS he's sometimes aware and sometimes not that he's poaching--but some of it is just compelling, regardless. No matter how much I know what a colossal fraud he is.
I do think what's really going on here ultimately is a kind of dare though. Through this brazen Ni tool, he concocts a pretext to just sit there and impose himself on you. He's acquired the Se power to influence the virtual field...and 'what are you gonna do about it?'
What I don't know is how aware he is of how full of shit he is and I guess I never will. Isn't that the point though? To absolutely value Te and Se is to care about getting your boats out into the flow of things and you can't step into the same river twice.
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