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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 6:01:28 GMT -5
I've been pondering a discussion I had in private with vincent, which might point to it being trivial on this forum, but I'm still set on giving it a poke. In it, Vincent said that ph/cph 4th/7th configuration affects the strength and development of 8th and 3rd, which is partially how intratype differences are outlined, though they are a bit more flexible than the type itself. However, how would that affect subtypes, function overdevelopments, and jumpers? Perhaps one way a jumper could manifest is as a case of the consequences of a massively phobic PoLR. A massively phobic PoLR, alongside PoLR demands, or rather third row demands, would lead to an overdevelopment of the other pole of third row, leading to the potential relative underdevelopment of the rest of the stack, especially second row. This would cause a sort of click, where suddenly something that worked one way and flow suddenly takes an entirely different course by being pushed over a threshold. This would be especially noticeable, and likely of happening, if that massive phobia happened somewhere around the start of one's life, making one entirely incompetent at PoLR even to a higher extent than is usual for PoLR, which would lead to massive overcompensating tertiary strategies. I don't know if extreme, massive cases of cph/ph can explain a subtype, though. |
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Post by vincent on May 20, 2021 16:17:23 GMT -5
Well, something that happens on one side of a row will have some kind of impact on the other side too. And then, cascading effects on the rest of the stack. It has to.
But determining what kind of impact and effect is another story.
Maybe there is indeed some kind of correlation with subtypes.
But i'm not sure.
We would have to look at exemplars of people who are indeed massively cph or ph and see what's going on.
Do you have any in mind ?
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Post by vincent on May 20, 2021 16:51:23 GMT -5
One of the issue here, for example, is that counterphobia is still phobia. And it's not obvious that it's necessarily less avoidant than ph.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2021 11:32:38 GMT -5
Well, something that happens on one side of a row will have some kind of impact on the other side too. And then, cascading effects on the rest of the stack. It has to.
But determining what kind of impact and effect is another story.
Maybe there is indeed some kind of correlation with subtypes.
But i'm not sure.
We would have to look at exemplars of people who are indeed massively cph or ph and see what's going on.
Do you have any in mind ?
We would have to go no further than to look at whether it's congruous with the jumpers we know. For example, if David Lynch is an infamous Ne peacocker, AND a SiTi jumper, than what the hell is happening with his PoLR? I know it's sort of about cause and effect, so we'd have to have a jumper exemplar at more points in time than one, ideally the whole trajectory, and the most ideally a childhood trajectory. I mean, in the thread "Casual Cognition", you do mention there is a TeNe jumper where a narcissistic, abusive parent made them bad at Ni. Is it a coincidence that the person that happens to have such a trajectory, AND is a jumper, sucks at Ni(their PoLR) by accident so much so that they seem incapable of something characteristic of their dom(Te)? What does precede what exactly?  |
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Post by vincent on May 21, 2021 17:32:30 GMT -5
I mean, in the thread "Casual Cognition", you do mention there is a TeNe jumper where a narcissistic, abusive parent made them bad at Ni.
Not bad at Ni. Not fully formal operational. And worse than most TeSi in that regard.
And this is not necessarily related to being a TeNe jumper.
Well, there is good reasons to think the two things are indeed independant.
-Jumper configuration is pretty stable over time, with the same kind of stability you also see with regular types and creative subtypes. -Jumpers are rarer than trauma. If they were "born from trauma", i would expect to see more of them.
Now about jumper polr, one thing i can already say is that it's often less obvious at first glance than with the regular types. Which doesn't mean it's more or less ph. Nor better developed.
I'll take another look at him.
One thing i can already say is that, at the very least, Lynch's polr is cph enough for him to work in a very technical environment doing a job that is usually very Te heavy.
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 17:42:34 GMT -5
Not bad at Ni. Not fully formal operational. And worse than most TeSi in that regard.
Yes, never said she was worse at Ni than other Ni PolRs. It is actually hard to conceive of what that would be like.
And this is not necessarily related to being a TeNe jumper.
--
Now about jumper polr, one thing i can already say is that it's often less obvious at first glance than with the regular types.
Also yes. And the reason she was so hard to type was that everyone assumed she must be Ni/Se axis because in fact she has what I would consider a counterphobic PolR, cosplaying some Archpriestess of Thoth in her head, also with very strong Se demo--which exaggerated sixth we've also noted with a lot of jumpers.
Which doesn't mean it's more or less ph. Nor better developed.
Also yes. She "collapses" "universal archetypes" and displays them like Barby of Geography Now! shows us the administrative districts of Sierra Leone.
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 17:50:39 GMT -5
In fact that is WHERE the Te went. To faking Ni (and peacocking Fi). Hence WHY it was unrecognizable as Te frame.
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Post by vincent on May 21, 2021 17:56:24 GMT -5
Also yes. And the reason she was so hard to type was that everyone assumed she must be Ni/Se axis because in fact she has what I would consider a counterphobic PolR, cosplaying some Archpriestess of Thoth in her head, also with very strong Se demo--which exaggerated sixth we've also noted with a lot of jumpers.
Yes indeed.
I agree her polr is counterphobic indeed.
Enough to be easily confused with a peacocking inferior.
Which really says something.
And this already answers the first question in the title.
Yes, Jumpers with cph polr do exist.
This TeNe is definitely one of them.
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 17:59:14 GMT -5
Yes but the other part about speculations on the sequence of the development I'm not so comfortable talking about in public.
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 18:01:59 GMT -5
I am willing to talk about myself in public though, if people ask questions or make observations to get me going.
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Post by vincent on May 21, 2021 18:04:12 GMT -5
Yes but the other part about speculations on the sequence of the development I'm not so comfortable talking about in public. Right. I agree.
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Post by vincent on May 21, 2021 18:11:06 GMT -5
I am willing to talk about myself in public though, if people ask questions or make observations to get me going.
Well, it's getting late here and i'm about to call it a day. But one observation i can make is that, unlike the jumper configuration itself, the cph or ph orientation of the polr is NOT stable.
I have been more counterphobic, and less counterphobic at different stages of my life.
And i suspect it is the case for most people.
It's not so much that people are phobic or counterphobic. It's more like it moves on a spectrum, from one to the other, sometimes with pretty strong "swings".
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 18:16:36 GMT -5
Yes, I agree with vincent . My extraverted feeling has extremely wide oscillation with very little in between. I am certain there are no few NiFi jumpers similar to me, that many of them are in performing arts as well, and also that most of them are being typed as another gamma, NeFi, or FiNe. |
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 18:21:32 GMT -5
Performing arts solves several problems at once:
you get to be cph Fe without having to actually relate well
you get to 'find Se'
you don't have to deal with the dullest aspects of the despised Te
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Post by Roshan on May 21, 2021 18:23:23 GMT -5
Oh, and you get to express the Fi intensity and discrimination--without having to bother pretending you know the answers to things and just processing more and more input (Ni frame). And there is more.
But to your point, it is truly outstanding for being on both extremes of the Fe ph/cph spectrum without being bothered much for it.
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