ahmed
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Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Mar 29, 2021 8:19:03 GMT -5
A couple of notes i have, might be helpful (and also corrections are appreciated @-@) Will keep updating it
The stack is built around the axiomatic use of functions AND the blocking of elements. Which can be gone through possibly without going over the four domains (at least for now, I think)
The axes are the reason behind the valued functions being in pairs. That base of Ji requiring Pe & Pi requiring Je to primarily show "results" is what ends up creating the “order” around the stack (or rather the hierarchal strength)
Introversion -> Crystallization -> over time Extroversion -> adaptability & fluidity -> in the moment.
Judging -> Complexity/Value/Systemization (and maybe qualitative?) Perceiving -> Information Gathering/Recognition Lens
Ji -> Over Time evaluation of systems -> What is permanently “fixed” Pi -> Over Time accumulation of data -> discernment (ends up being a flux of “one thing”) Je -> Real Time management/interfacing with system -> heuristical/fluid Pe -> Real Time recognition of data -> Short Burst Perception/Recognition (opportunist?)
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Mar 29, 2021 8:23:14 GMT -5
Assuming - for now - that there is no such thing as two Pi functions or Ji functions etc,
A single directional attitude (i or e) on its own is stagnant. For extroversion: there is nothing that can be referenced, or dependent upon so the ability to “adapt” or deal in real time is not there even. For introversion: nothing enters, nothing can be crystalized - stays empty.
Now, an axis on its own is still going on an infinite “loop”, there is no differentiation and no movement made outside its domain. It can't really do anything and will also stagnate.
Perceiving will keep “letting things in”, Pe "flashes" and Pi will "map", but of what? Judging will keep reforming complexities, and will keep structuring maps, but from what?
tbc👀
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Post by vincent on Mar 29, 2021 15:23:53 GMT -5
The stack is built around the axiomatic use of functions AND the blocking of elements. Which can be gone through possibly without going over the four domains (at least for now, I think) The axes are the reason behind the valued functions being in pairs. That base of Ji requiring Pe & Pi requiring Je to primarily show "results" is what ends up creating the “order” around the stack (or rather the hierarchal strength)
Yes !
Yes. And another way to look at this is
Introversion : Depth
Extraversion : Breadth
Introversion : Accuracy
Extraversion : Precision
Yes Perceiving functions are world-making functions. Discerning and exploring.
Judging functions are decision-making and value-making functions. Articulating and interfacing.
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Apr 4, 2021 7:40:05 GMT -5
Pi-Ji: to be written Pe-Je: to be written
Pi+Je/Pe+Ji > Pi+Ji/Pe+Je: to be written
JePi/PiJe: Relaying/Speaking out the world.
PeJi/JiPe: Mathematical/Mechanical (maybe not that good hmm...Equation is better?)
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Apr 4, 2021 7:48:54 GMT -5
I remember when I was first looking into Auburn's stuff, he had good written about the energetics. So I took a look at the (new?) wiki page again and I have no idea why it is that long >_> reading that hurts my brain
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Post by vincent on Apr 4, 2021 12:53:13 GMT -5
Pi-Ji: to be writtenPe-Je: to be writtenPi+Je/Pe+Ji > Pi+Ji/Pe+Je: to be writtenJePi/PiJe: Relaying/Speaking out the world. PeJi/JiPe: Mathematical/Mechanical (maybe not that good hmm...Equation is better?)
I realize that this is WIP ahmed but "mathematical/mechanical" sounds a bit weird for PeJi/JiPe. It might work for PeTi and TiPe. But for PeFi and FiPe, it doesn't sound right.
Also, why are you making those mirroring pairs. That's 4/4 types, 8 types at once. Finding something that would work for all at once won't be easy at all.
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Apr 4, 2021 13:25:37 GMT -5
Pi-Ji: to be writtenPe-Je: to be writtenPi+Je/Pe+Ji > Pi+Ji/Pe+Je: to be writtenJePi/PiJe: Relaying/Speaking out the world. PeJi/JiPe: Mathematical/Mechanical (maybe not that good hmm...Equation is better?)
I realize that this is WIP ahmed but "mathematical/mechanical" sounds a bit weird for PeJi/JiPe. It might work for PeTi and TiPe. But for PeFi and FiPe, it doesn't sound right.
Yeah, true, it doesn't. Equation-like could work better, but it still doesn't really work well. I'm trying to consider function blocking not necessarily the types👀
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Post by vincent on Apr 4, 2021 14:14:44 GMT -5
I realize that this is WIP ahmed but "mathematical/mechanical" sounds a bit weird for PeJi/JiPe. It might work for PeTi and TiPe. But for PeFi and FiPe, it doesn't sound right.
Yeah, true, it doesn't. Equation-like could work better, but it still doesn't really work well. I'm trying to consider function blocking not necessarily the types👀 Ok, i see. Still a lot of ground to cover. Looking forward to your next proposals !
Btw, I would suggest "synergies" rather than "blocking". Might be better to leave that ugly word to the Soviets
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Post by vincent on Apr 4, 2021 14:22:53 GMT -5
I remember when I was first looking into Auburn's stuff, he had good written about the energetics. So I took a look at the (new?) wiki page again and I have no idea why it is that long >_> reading that hurts my brain
It seems new to me too, yes.
He seems to have updated quite a lot of things recently.
Will take another at his site at some point.
I guess it's that long in part because it's an excerpt from his book. But ultimately, the main factor is that Ni polr doesn't collapse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 0:46:19 GMT -5
Pi-Ji: to be writtenPe-Je: to be writtenPi+Je/Pe+Ji > Pi+Ji/Pe+Je: to be writtenJePi/PiJe: Relaying/Speaking out the world. PeJi/JiPe: Mathematical/Mechanical (maybe not that good hmm...Equation is better?)
I realize that this is WIP ahmed but "mathematical/mechanical" sounds a bit weird for PeJi/JiPe. It might work for PeTi and TiPe. But for PeFi and FiPe, it doesn't sound right.
Also, why are you making those mirroring pairs. That's 4/4 types, 8 types at once. Finding something that would work for all at once won't be easy at all.
How about "stirring"(Pe w/ Ji) vs. "pushing"(Pi w/ Je)? Even within Fi-Te quadras, Pe w/ Ji stir up the soup, which the quadra follows. It'd not even be too difficult to see how a Ni-Se quadra's soup is still Se-based not "Ni-based". Sobriety can't be soup(/"maya"), where are the nutrients? Though I must admit the "pushing" applies a bit more to JePi, rather than PiJe, so perhaps "movers"?
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Post by vincent on Apr 5, 2021 4:36:59 GMT -5
How about "stirring"(Pe w/ Ji) vs. "pushing"(Pi w/ Je)? Even within Fi-Te quadras, Pe w/ Ji stir up the soup, which the quadra follows. It'd not even be too difficult to see how a Ni-Se quadra's soup is still Se-based not "Ni-based". Sobriety can't be soup(/"maya"), where are the nutrients? Though I must admit the "pushing" applies a bit more to JePi, rather than PiJe, so perhaps "movers"?
Well ahmed is looking at synergies so -order should be irrelevant -both functions should have the same weight
-quadras can't be used yet (because those synergies is what makes quadras what they are, not the other way around)
also, the perspective has to be internal cognition here.
Looking at it from the perspective of "the object", "the soup", or "Maya" will only lead to counter-intuitive results at best. e.g : "Pushing" is intuitively a Pe dom, not a Pi one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 6:26:23 GMT -5
How about "stirring"(Pe w/ Ji) vs. "pushing"(Pi w/ Je)? Even within Fi-Te quadras, Pe w/ Ji stir up the soup, which the quadra follows. It'd not even be too difficult to see how a Ni-Se quadra's soup is still Se-based not "Ni-based". Sobriety can't be soup(/"maya"), where are the nutrients? Though I must admit the "pushing" applies a bit more to JePi, rather than PiJe, so perhaps "movers"?
Well ahmed is looking at synergies so -order should be irrelevant -both functions should have the same weight
-quadras can't be used yet (because those synergies is what makes quadras what they are, not the other way around)
also, the perspective has to be internal cognition here.
Looking at it from the perspective of "the object", "the soup", or "Maya" will only lead to counter-intuitive results at best. e.g : "Pushing" is intuitively a Pe dom, not a Pi one.
Nah. Pe dom explores, ergo stirring, even if of infatuation. Pushing requires a direction. For example, the most apparent case of this is Ne w/ Fi, where they aspire to some ideal world and "work towards it" with the machine. Ne w/ Fi stirs up some fantastical land of utopia, which the Si w/ Te then stubbornly steers towards. But that is true even with Se-Ni quadras. Se w/ Fi starts a bunch of wars and mobilizes troops(Fi), but that is still stirring, they are stirring up a soup of war, there are no grounds or precise directions, only perhaps the confinements of "what we war". The fact it's less apparent is just because we're distanced to places where this is more apparent. And if it were more apparent, it'd be visible how Ni w/ Je serves to devise the strategies of how to move the Se-infatuated troops. Pe w/ Ji always stirs up the context, the pot, the soup, within which the Pi w/ Je operates, trying not only to re-introduce sobriety to the soup, but justifying it to other quadras. Pe w/ Ji set up the game, sort of. Also, I'm listing off quadras to give you examples. And Xi w/ Xe is synonymous to Xe w/ Xi, it's just more convenient to write it in this short way. You could argue that my definitions are biased towards extraverted functions, but that's merely because the introverted functions work in the background, trying to ground their extraverted pair. So back at the case of Se w/ Fi, the ISFP in this instance is trying to sustain the authenticity of the Fi realm so ESFP can mobilize troops without them being suspicious, but just because you don't see how it does that legwork, and just see how they are mobilized, doesn't mean the definition lacks the introversion counterpart. The same case can be used for PiJe, where people only usually see the motion, and don't see the panoramic observation coordinating that motion. I stand by it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 6:36:34 GMT -5
To further elaborate, though with a Si-Ne bias, imagine a quadra like Howl's Moving Castle. What happens in the castle in the form of Pe can have more force, energy, impact, anything than the Je w/ Pi, but all of that stays in the castle, and the only thing that moves the castle a particular direction is Je w/ Pi. So again with Ni-Se quadras, the troops might be warmongering violence-maniacs full of bloodlust, but they will stay pillaging a certain area until their chieftain moves them to another. What Pe w/ Ji does is it restructures, redefines, reforms, reignites, respiritizes the castle. It does NOT move the castle.
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Post by vincent on Apr 5, 2021 6:56:35 GMT -5
The problem here is that we are NOT looking at quadra castles here @ash
That's ahmed 's thread and he is looking at synergies between functions. He is talking about machine language, low end stuff, internal cognition stuff. Building blocks.
You're talking about GUI, high end stuff, external intertype stuff. Emerging patterns.
At the scale ahmed is looking at, extraverted functions ARE moving outward, and in Pe's case, pushing forward. introverted functions ARE directed inward.
By definition btw.
And in that context, the words you suggested can't work because they acrobatically revert this logic.
Your perspective on the socion and your take on the role of mirror pairs within their quadra might have some merit (and i'll reread it at some point)
but, honestly, we have some work to do on the functions before we tackle this.
In the menatime, let ahmed do his thing here
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Apr 5, 2021 7:20:29 GMT -5
To further elaborate, though with a Si-Ne bias, imagine a quadra like Howl's Moving Castle. What happens in the castle in the form of Pe can have more force, energy, impact, anything than the Je w/ Pi, but all of that stays in the castle, and the only thing that moves the castle a particular direction is Je w/ Pi. So again with Ni-Se quadras, the troops might be warmongering violence-maniacs full of bloodlust, but they will stay pillaging a certain area until their chieftain moves them to another. What Pe w/ Ji does is it restructures, redefines, reforms, reignites, respiritizes the castle. It does NOT move the castle. I'd probably agree with that but I don't think that going at it now (for me) is a good idea. The quadra & intertype relations are built upon the interaction of the stack, and the activation of certain parts of the system is what will lead it to move, which could either be a vertical move (benefit ring/supervision ring) movement or a horizontal one within the quadra. Different direction will lead to different manifestations, and the context itself will affect the sustainability of it but as vincent said, this is still pre-all of that stuff - not even function definitions are included - more ground work 👀
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