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Post by Roshan on Mar 28, 2021 11:21:07 GMT -5
So, I bought Peterson's older book as I said I would but then it got hidden when I had the apartment cleaned. Now I found it and it seems like a good time to reinstitute the book club. Anyone who wants to read this with me, please like the post and/or post here.I'll be using this thread to make notes on as I read if no one can join me soon and you can catch up later, but I'd like to know asap.
We're interested in this book not just for the insights it may provide but for insights into the ct of this unusual person. His E-type 613 seems pretty straightforward with a bit of wiggle room for the rest. (We type him sp/SO 6w57w6-1w92w1-3w44w5). His ct is probably TeNi but then it has a very 'prey-side' Se and a lot of Ti, which will then be either pinch hitting for not-so-found Fi OR a sign of going to 'the next level'...or somehow both? All this makes him seem at times quite alpha-ish for gamma.
Be that as it may, the primary focus of the thread will be to understand the material with the ct being secondary, because you can't really go for the ct until you've understood first, but I expect there'll be a lot of overlap.
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Post by vincent on Mar 28, 2021 13:34:05 GMT -5
Yes i'm sure there will be a lot of overlap.
And of course i'm down to read it with you.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 28, 2021 13:43:51 GMT -5
Okay, good, vincent. There seem to be some pdfs. I ordered it so I can write on it.
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Post by vincent on Mar 28, 2021 15:23:12 GMT -5
Okay, good, vincent . There seem to be some pdfs. I ordered it so I can write on it. Yes, i found one and downloaded it a while back. "Routledge (1999). PDF edition with figures. May 2002"
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 15:28:09 GMT -5
Well, I found that Joshua L. has JP's whole series of "Maps of Meaning"up on yt in a playlist he calls Systemic Foundatons. So if people want to follow along with it, they can. I'm just putting the first one here for now, and I'm doing it from JL's account, not JP's, so people may be motivated to see what else JL has to offer. I'll probably do something else on EF with this series later (e.g. put it in Related Fields) but for now hopefully this should do.--roshan EDIT: Oops, the videos showing up when you click on Systemic Foundations in the text link above aren't necessarily part of that playlist. I'll try to figure out how to link directly to that playlist in.a bit; so far yt/google wouldn't let me.
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Post by vincent on Mar 30, 2021 17:14:40 GMT -5
Well, I found that Joshua L. has JP's whole series of "Maps of Meaning"up on yt in a playlist he calls Systemic Foundatons. So if people want to follow along with it, they can. I'm just putting the first one here for now, and I'm doing it from JL's account, not JP's, so people may be motivated to see what else JL has to offer. I'll probably do something else on EF with this series later (e.g. put it in Related Fields) but for now hopefully this should do.--roshan in inadvertent admin mode
Will watch it soon.
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 17:36:13 GMT -5
I read most of the book when my laptop was being repaired. I was very surprised there didn't really seem to be that much in it I hadn't already gleaned from the tons of videos with him I've watched-- because I've seen so little from the actual MoM series. I thought the book would be much more technical in terms of say cognitive and developmental psychology (edit: and neuroscience), and that the charts, which I'd glimpsed here and there, would get more elaborate. I expected less speculation and more science. I also expected his thinking would have evolved more by now and it kind of felt like a leftover meal, so I found myself skipping around, not reading in order, getting antsy. But I also knew I was going to comment on the chapters so I could easily start all over. If that weren't the case I'm sure I would have read straight through. Anyway I'll start making those comments today, but I have to say I think this is what TeNi does. Ni tool 'settles' on a 'revelation' and Te hones it for Se force, becoming stubborn in it. Not long ago I questioned the typing of David Gray as TeNi creative subtype, suggesting he might be SeFi. But kind of Sam Vaknin, Peterson, Campbell, and Gray seem like they do the exact same thing--in diminishing order of complexity (aka Ti unignoring). They create a 'grand narrative' based on few actual core concepts--pillars, depth elements--and really they keep telling it. Which is one of the reasons (though by no means the only) I was tickled pink today at stumbling upon Stephen Frye, with 'expansive' Ne tool coming from Fi 'highest discrimination', essentially telling Peterson that he and Campbell make up myths about myths. Anyway...the book:
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 18:06:33 GMT -5
synchronicitous nb: having just put in those links for the people I mentioned above and seeing the graphic of the triangle from David's post from April 7 huge on top of his homepage, I think I can be forgiven for considering he may be Ti PolR. But he'll work it. He'll get E1 to be fire somehow because gut is sx and fire, heart is soc and air, and head is sp and earth. And it will take some Ti-ing. I have no doubt he'll get it. We go back a long time.
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 18:37:02 GMT -5
synchronicitous nb #2 still in re dg: on the way back from getting coffee to wash all this down the windows of the Waldorf School down the block were filled with children's pictures of the pyramids of Egypt in the scorching desert sun and the Eye of Horus. Duly noted. I shall return to summarizing Peterson. After all I am a 6. The same Six that was told by Gray, who had by then read all my long poems, that if Sixes are sx first they can hope one day to be free enough from their 'grid' to create truly original material, like Bruce Springsteen. But, the book. A cowboy's work is never done. Avanti.
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Post by vincent on May 17, 2021 18:40:30 GMT -5
Anyway I'll start making those comments today, but I have to say I think this is what TeNi does. Ni tool 'settles' on a 'revelation' and hones it for its force, becoming stubborn in it. Not long ago I questioned the typing of David Gray as TeNi creative subtype, suggesting he might be SeFi. But kind of Sam Vaknin, Peterson, Campbell, and Gray seem like they do the exact same thing--in diminishing order of complexity (aka Ti unignoring). They create a 'grand narrative' based on few actual core concepts--pillars, depth elements--and really they keep telling it.
Yes, i think that's absolutely right. Spot on actually.
Yes indeed. And that's probably related to what i was saying about their "love but not blind" semi-duality. Frye really sees what Peterson's is doing here.
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Post by vincent on May 17, 2021 18:47:07 GMT -5
The same Six that was told by Gray, who had by then read all my long poems, that if Sixes are sx first they can hope one day to be free enough from their 'grid' to create truly original material, like Bruce Springsteen. But, the book. A cowboy's work is never done. Avanti.
But yeah, Avanti ! ttys
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 19:27:13 GMT -5
MAPS OF MEANING The Architecture of Belief He begins with the epigraph: I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Matthew 13:35)
I shall deviate a bit from my planned course and consider the TeNi hypothesis as I summarize, since I already read most of the book and feel more confident of it. Here I want to note the similarity with Te Sis we've discussed of having a confidence in their insights that verges on messianic, when they are neither old enough to have earned it nor young enough to have an excuse. I believe this comes from the jarring juxtaposition of the formulaic frame with "N". The for lack of a better word 'grid-like' frame is over-awed by the sequence of its own cognitive development. Of course other configurations can be just as messianic but they usually won't also be so workmanlike. And Peterson isn't playing out of his league in the way that a TeSi cult leader is but there are pitfalls. Anyways the preface is called De scensus ad Inferos.
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 19:46:24 GMT -5
He isn't playing quite out of his league but he certainly felt like he was for some time. The preface is autobiographical and he tells us how he was constantly beset by nightmares to the point he felt he was going insane when he was in graduate school and how he specifically came to Jung looking for a solution because there was none elsewhere. Here I want to raise the issue of 'stories' again with vincent for Si. Vincent has some correlation of Si with linear stories due to the sequencing, the chronological skeleton of them. For instance you're more likely to find novelists in delta than in gamma and when you find them in gamma they're doing something else--like the way Ayn Rand is both polemicizing and mythologizing. But Vincent said here early on that Peterson doesn't tell personal linear stories about himself and others, that Si PolR people basically don't. But Peterson always tells those kinds of stories. He offers anecdote after anecdote. We get to know many people from his past; he speaks of them warmly; all of that. And that's a lot, though not all, of what he does in the preface. It's personal.
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Post by Roshan on May 17, 2021 20:09:16 GMT -5
He's told us a million times how he corrects every word he writes a million times, so I'm copying the very beginning of the preface because he must have corrected it ten million times and it must be very revealing:
Something we cannot see protects us from something we do not understand. The thing we cannot see is culture, in its intrapsychic or internal manifestation. The thing we do not understand is the chaos that gave rise to culture. If the structure is distrupted, unwittingly, chaos returns. We will do anything--anything--to defend ourselves against that return.
I really find it extraordinary that he started off by calling culture 'something', and yes, that could be Si PolR-ish. I also find this whole first paragraph sort of dangles in between logical and gnomic, considering it was edited ten million times.
After that he quotes Jung. There's no attribution, I looked it up; it may be an error in copy-editing--this book is an edition that was rushed out when he became famous and I've never read a book with so many printing errors that wasn't marked as an in-house galley proof, which was depressing. Anyways, the quote:
"The very fact that a general problem has gripped and assimilated the whole of a person is a guarantee that the speaker has really experienced it, and perhaps gained something from his sufferings. He will then reflect the problem for us in his personal life and thereby show us a truth".
He seems to be making an apology and appeal to authority for the existence of the book.
I'll reread the preface now and then make a few comments and hopefully someone else who's read it will join me.
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Post by vincent on May 18, 2021 11:21:45 GMT -5
I'll reread the preface now and then make a few comments and hopefully someone else who's read it will join me.
I just got back home after a meeting (that i had completely forgot about) and i still have some work to do by tomorrow.
I'll join you (and reply about Si stories) when i'm done with it
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