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Post by Roshan on Mar 14, 2021 19:00:25 GMT -5
I don't really understand, though, why people were seeing Te and/or Fi so strongly and I wonder if they could articulate that more. It wasn't apparent to me. Only the first photo seemed very clearly Fi>Fe and as I said, I started leaning to Te PolR. What was apparent was that he was a double introvert, meaning a jumper, so the manifestation of the functions was going to be pretty mucked up. I mean I get that adrian explained why Fi but I don't really get why not Fe iykwm. Fe second I thought can seem 'hazy', which is what he seemed. (Though not so much for me to mind an Fe PolR typing....).
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 11:04:43 GMT -5
This picture is on his wiki article. There was something about the combination of the adult photos above where he seemed to be in a haze that was Te PolR and Se ignoring--or, less likely, vice versa-- EXCEPT I could see him leading the cavalry up the hill, brandishing his sword shouting "Chaaarge!" (if he had to lead the calvary up the hill) and then receiving knighthood from her Majesty. This photo captures that aspect of him.
Yes it does. I agree completely.
And the thing is, he kind of did lead the cavalry.
He fought and became on officier during World War I, in France, during the Battle of the Somme.
He looks SiFe-ish in a lot of hils older photos indeed. And while it's not uncommon for SiTe to get softer when they get older, he is still softer than most.
But in this wikipedia picture he is quite similar to Zygmund Bauman at a similar age.
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 11:15:13 GMT -5
I don't really understand, though, why people were seeing Te and/or Fi so strongly and I wonder if they could articulate that. It wasn't apparent to me. Only the first photo seemed very clearly Fi>Fe and as I said, I started leaning to Te PolR. What was apparent was that he was a double introvert, meaning a jumper, so the manifestation of the functions was going to be pretty mucked up.
I agree. To me the first pic i posted doesn't show any extraverted function clearly.
All it says is ; almost certainly an introverted jumper, maybe a Pi jumper but not even that is clear.
The fact that in the following photos, the extraverted functions are still not clear is actually one of the strongest argument for Si dominance.
Because with Si dom, the polr is often very hard to see and with a jumper configuration, both the aux and the polr will be hard to see.
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 11:59:22 GMT -5
One of the things that convinced me of SiFi over SiTi is the comparison with David Lynch
Which made me realize that there was nothing remotely Lynchian in Tolkien's Middle Earth.
Not even in its darkest corners.
His shadow is SeTi, not SeFi.
Beta, not gamma.
In his books we get lots and lots of barbarians at the gates ( the Orcs !). Man routinely becomes a wolf for man (which is what distinguish it from elves and dwarves).
Crakles in the veneer of civilization and lost Paradises.
Lots of destruction and corruption, but no immanent "monster within", no internal erosion.
All those are ST themes, not SF ones.
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 12:08:39 GMT -5
Another thing is that, everything in Tolkien is... full, abundant, plethoric. He is as much of a hoarder and treasure keeper than the Dragon of the Hobbit. Of course, it has something to do with the accumulative nature of the Si frame itself. But this abundance isn't just an abundance of details. It's an abundance of nuances and values. Fi treasures. And the ring is only one of those. I would expect Ti agenda to go against the accumulation in some way, to counteract it, to streamline it. There is no such thing with Tolkien, no tension between Cornucopia and the Void.
tbcd
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Mar 15, 2021 14:24:25 GMT -5
I was sure about Pi lead & Te/Fi with Fi agenda. Te is usually harder for me to spot when it isn't screaming at my face so it was more about Fi agenda & Ti demo. I listened to an interview too, and made me lean more SiTe over Ni lead. (Also with socionics correlations, LII as one of his most likely types fits better with SiTe) I haven't fully integrated the two subtypes while typing, so SiFi still counts for me as a win
Well, yeah, but he isn't your regular SiTe.
I mean, you could certainly see some similarity between him and Bauman or between him and HeideggerBut they are both a lot more obvious (and stronger Te) than he is.
In some pictures, especially older ones, Tolkien seems actually closer to Alan Bloom (who is SiFe) than to them. He is still a detail oriented world builder over an aesthetic one though, something that I would expect more from Si + the two accessible T functions than SiFe👀
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 16:29:25 GMT -5
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Post by vincent on Mar 15, 2021 16:31:36 GMT -5
Standing with the Druid Tree.
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Post by vincent on Mar 16, 2021 15:56:03 GMT -5
His On Fairy Stories (which is one of the first essays i read when i was a kid) is pretty interesting and typologically relevant, i think.
First of all, for Tolkien, fantasy doesn't start with the characters, nor with the story. It start with the Land.
Just like he began the creation of Middle Earth by drawing a map.
“I propose to speak about fairy-stories, though I am aware that this is a rash adventure. Faërie is a perilous land, and in it are pitfalls for the unwary and dungeons for the overbold.”
“The Land of Fairy Story is wide and deep and high … its seas are shoreless and its stars uncounted, its beauty an enchantment and its peril ever-present; both joy and sorrow are poignant as a sword. In that land a man may (perhaps) count himself fortunate to have wandered, but its very mystery and wealth make dumb the traveller who would report. And while he is there it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gates be shut and the keys be lost.
This is actually quite different from the Dreamtime of alpha quadra. Alpha quadra Dream "forget" about our incarnate condition, and ritually go back "in illo tempore" before the Fall of Man. Before the creation of the World even. Here, an incarnate, fallen man has to "travel" there, find the gate of Faerie, use the keys, and then... "not all of those who wander are lost".
That's Delta "alternate reality", imo.
When the Si-Ne axis is paired with Te and Fi, things are made, done, achieved, the world is built already (Te) and Sin can't be denied (Fi).
Alphastolgia yes, but not alphaness.
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Post by vincent on Mar 16, 2021 16:19:52 GMT -5
Another thing is his insistance that fairy tales are "not for kids" “the association of children and fairy-stories is an accident of our domestic history. Fairy-stories have in the modern lettered world been relegated to the “nursery,” as shabby or old-fashioned furniture is relegated to the play-room, primarily because the adults do not want it, and do not mind if it is misused.”
And he is not saying, like alphas would, that it's not JUST for kids, and that it's also about our "inner child", for which we should care more. He is saying that the childish aspect is a recent perversion, and actually a regression.
Fantasy IS serious business.
On the other hand, he insists that escapism is indeed an essential aspect of fairy tales.
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” “I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which 'Escape' is now so often used. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?” The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using Escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter. just so a Party-spokesman might have labeled departure from the misery of the Fuhrer's or any other Reich and even criticism of it as treachery .... Not only do they confound the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem to prefer the acquiescence of the "quisling" to the resistance of the patriot.” Again, very gnostic undertones.
Which goes with a very demiurgic conception of creativity :
"Fantasy remains a human right: we make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made: and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.”
Lots of Ni role here too : for him, it seems that (alternate) world-building was a sacred duty and ultimately a form of Imitatio Dei.
tbcd.
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Post by vincent on Mar 17, 2021 10:10:44 GMT -5
He is still a detail oriented world builder over an aesthetic one though, something that I would expect more from Si + the two accessible T functions than SiFe👀 Right. And it goes way beyond detail orientation actually.
Tolkien writing and world-building was literally geological and sedimentary. He was using drafts as ground layers. And he was applying archeological and philological method to his own texts, looking back at them as if they were historical source materials.
Something like "self-epigraphy".
Which seems consistent with Si -> Tx -> Fi to me.
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Post by Roshan on Mar 17, 2021 11:29:11 GMT -5
I'd like to know, ahmed , how did you recognize him? And why do you find his Fi so much more pronounced than Fe? (Bearing in mind I have never actually read him, which seems to be some kind of misdemeanor in 'typology' circles). Was it originally because of the first photo, or you already thought so?
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Mar 17, 2021 15:38:51 GMT -5
I'd like to know, ahmed , how did you recognize him? the first picture and this one Facial features are more or less the same, even the look in his eye is quite similar. I never directly read his work either most direct exposure to his work was through the LOTR films, interviews & actually the essay vincent linked. But, I was trying to type him a while back, was tracking a discussion in the WSS (world socionics society) facebook group and going through the sources they linked. I didn't consider Fi much, or even Fe...but Something that stuck out, even through the films - which isn't really a good "source" for how to approach his work really but ah well - overall structurally, LOTR is mostly built through strong backing of the two Pi functions & Ti, and from what i learned, the books go to extreme detail in the mythology, the expansion and discovery of new ideas is not the main focus but more the codification of already existent, discovered myths (in new clothing). In socionics (primarily the WSS interpretation of model a), when you add his extreme perfectionism, work ethic, and overall focus on structure & mythology 4D Ti makes the best sense (4D = strength of the lead/demonstrative functions), also his interest in language & taxonomies fit best with Ti & Ne valued over Ni valued. and other aspects of his life style makes him more Si valuing. But a couple of things that are quite important that makes the typing different in the two systems (and actually, sometimes correlate quite well): - Si in socionics is mostly homeostasis and attention to the body, the codification aspect of Si is usually considered either Ti (if it's systemic) or Ne ( general multiplicity) - Because of socionics blocking, demonstrative slot is usually the "healthy" and most used unvalued function, with the role being under specific circumstances and not really accessed that much. and as a result, they underplay (especially in fiction) how much the role is actually there, and how it's probably better integrated than the demonstrative function. -> Tolkein didn't really focus on distilling logical axioms, as a Ti lead would, and he "respected" the mythology much more than I would expect of a higher Ne user. and David Lynch also shares that aspect, the archetypes in his work aren't exactly parody-like, neither are they the main frame of the work, or what he is trying to point towards... They are guiding the work in the background, but aren't "really" there except as backing (Mulholland Drive is a good example, i think👀)
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Post by vincent on Mar 17, 2021 16:30:36 GMT -5
I never directly read his work either most direct exposure to his work was through the LOTR films, interviews & actually the essay vincent linked. But, I was trying to type him a while back, was tracking a discussion in the WSS (world socionics society) facebook group and going through the sources they linked.
What was the consensus for his type in that group ?
So you're saying that based on those socionics definitions, you thought he was Pi lead with Ti 6th ? So either NiTe or SiTe.
Did i got that right ?
I'm... not sure about that actually.
I suspect his interest in languages as a lot to do with Te actually.
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here.
What is guiding the work in the background ? Logical axioms ? Or the mythology and archetype ? Or both ?
Are you suggesting Tolkien could be SiTi (like Lynch) ?
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ahmed
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 166
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by ahmed on Mar 17, 2021 16:58:51 GMT -5
I never directly read his work either most direct exposure to his work was through the LOTR films, interviews & actually the essay vincent linked. But, I was trying to type him a while back, was tracking a discussion in the WSS (world socionics society) facebook group and going through the sources they linked.
What was the consensus for his type in that group ?
LII (TiNe) was the consensus (thought i typed in the post, apparently i didn't woops) Based on how I understand the slots, I thought Pi lead most likely, with two strong Tx functions. + Ni Role > Si role But with how the slots are understood to interact and be accessed in most interpretations of model a strong Ti, with valued Si but apparent Ni makes Ni fit demonstrative more than role (slot that is only used in times of stress) the mythology & the archetype. I think that Lynch & Tolkien (from what i know of him as of now) use Ni in a bit of a similar way, yet Lynch is not "tolkienian" at all. I do think though, LII and SiTe are fairly close, and benefit ring mistypes are somewhat common in socionics communities
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