jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106 
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Feb 2, 2021 18:41:02 GMT -5
Okay-- I've sat with it a bit, and I'm really not feeling Tori as an sp/so 2. I'm looking at her with my other triple positive examples/ 2 leads/ sp/sos, and she just... really doesn't seem to fit! I felt like she was one of the clearest visual representatives of so/sx that I'd seen, and I'm open still to the idea that she's actually sp/SO after all, but not, I don't think, as a core 2w1... In my opinion, it's gotta be something like 7w6 lead if she's sp/SO, and even then, I'm not sure I'm convinced she isn't so/sx... Do you see any possibilities besides sp 2 for her, Roshan? Do you think she could possibly be sp/SO 7, or some range of so/sx 2?? |
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 20:36:44 GMT -5
Do you see any possibilities besides sp 2 for her, Roshan ? Do you think she could possibly be sp/SO 7, or some range of so/sx 2?? Of course I see something else is possible for her, especially since this is a new typing. But the thing is, this is the sp 2 fixation. Sitting and waiting in a box wearing someone else's clothes wanting an autonomous identity via someone else, "excuse me can I be you for a while?" waiting for her own voice to come, 'got something to say but nothing comes". Starts off in the kitchen with the dog, saved by the garbage truck, "years go by and I'll still be waiting for somebody else to understand..." Look at my lips (her physical features), core issues very close to Six ("the sky is falling"--Chicken Little theme), petulant, girlish... |
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 20:46:05 GMT -5
This also is sp 2. Daddy's little girl, wants/doesn't want to individuate. Fairy princess (Sleeping Beauty). "I hear a voice, you must learn to stand up for yourself cuz I won't always be around"....always waiting for time to decide, "Years go by and I'm here still waiting"...child woman, (counter) pride of place is in being present for others but not moving...badge of shame as badge of honor. Social 2 wears a very loud badge of honor.
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 20:49:05 GMT -5
Anyway this is Tori Amos before commercial makeovers. She seems very sx last. And not 7 lead. A lot more proud to be humble than gluttony up front.
(Meanwhile, the interviewer could possibly be a social 2.)
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 20:58:03 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 21:05:32 GMT -5
Recent interview
Still sitting and waiting, good girl hands folded, self-contained, massive sp boundary.
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Post by Roshan on Feb 2, 2021 21:21:18 GMT -5
In this mid-years one, when she's in conversation she still seems like a child woman but oscillating between 4 and 8. Her sx is very upfront but somewhat maniacal, coming blazing out through her eyes like something alien to her base metabolism. 2 between 4 and 8, the compliance between two frenzies; the self-denial between two self-absorptions. The thing is, it seems to be the music that makes her sx come front and center, and even then the brakes are there.
Sorry jastyne, I accidentally clicked on edit here instead of reply and replied in here. I just fixed that but since it says I edited I'll just say here that after all that ensues I'll look at her again. |
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jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Feb 2, 2021 21:54:31 GMT -5
Do you see any possibilities besides sp 2 for her, Roshan ? Do you think she could possibly be sp/SO 7, or some range of so/sx 2?? Of course I see something else is possible for her, especially since this is a new typing. But the thing is, this is the sp 2 fixation. Sitting and waiting in a box wearing someone else's clothes wanting an autonomous identity via someone else, "excuse me can I be you for a while?" waiting for her own voice to come, 'got something to say but nothing comes". Starts off in the kitchen with the dog, saved by the garbage truck, "years go by and I'll still be waiting for somebody else to understand..." Look at my lips (her physical features), core issues very close to Six ("the sky is falling"--Chicken Little theme), petulant, girlish... See, for me, that "I've got something to say, I know, but nothing comes" feels very resonant as a 9... Maybe social + 9/7. But that idea of missed moments/ not being able to express yourself/ 'be heard' feels more 9/7 than 2 for me... or perhaps I'm hilariously obliviously confirming my own 2ity  I don't feel like I see sp 2s having that sort of feeling about themselves and and announcing it-- that they're identity-less? The sp 2s I know/ have seen seem to have quite a strong 'brand'-- some of the strongest of anyone I can think of, actually. Thinking of Audrey, Aurora, Marianne, yes, they each had/have a sort of wide-eyed innocence/ 'take care of me' invitation, drawing in. I know that 2 can and usually does 'add sx', if you will, but I feel like... it's more of a femme fatal, sensual, hyper-feminine flavor of sx (yes, less so in sp 2, but even then you can feel it). Tori's sx, wherever it's coming from, feels like it's more in the style of so/sx. I feel like Tori is more outward-pushing-- teasing, bratty, flirting, inviting you to come play in a more 7ish// so/sx way. She dressed up in a cheerleader's outfit, yes, but I don't see any actual sense of helplessness. She's daring more than she is infantile-- I think adolescence/ teenager style/energy/behavior is so/sx, where as cutesy-child-baby give me big bows and knee socks and look at my giant wide baby eyes is more sp 2. |
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jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Feb 2, 2021 22:02:25 GMT -5
In this mid-years one, when she's in conversation she still seems like a child woman but oscillating between 4 and 8. Her sx is very upfront but somewhat maniacal, coming blazing out through her eyes like something alien to her base metabolism. 2 between 4 and 8, the compliance between two frenzies; the self-denial between two self-absorptions. The thing is, it seems to be the music that makes her sx come front and center, and even then the brakes are there. Okay-- how is this woman not one of my slutty, over-the-top, inappropriately inviting everyone into their pants on accident so/sx brethren?! Or if not that, SEVEN?! The wildness, the looseness, the smirk, the synflow of it all! .
I'm confusedddddd. Do I know nothing?! [**weeps in lack of ability to see perspective**] Watching again and ETA: she seems far less image-conscious than are other sp 2 examples, don't you think? I feel like with the others, their 'playfulness' is much more curated, intentional-- you can see they're aware of/ considering the eyes on them, and how they're going to be perceived by the observer. Tori isn't holding that in the same way-- and she's much, much less 'put together', it seems. Physically, aesthetically, energetically-- she's messier. More careless. Wilder. Twos in general, and -especially- 2w1s, characteristically have a thing for manners, etiquette, propriety. When Aurora breaks expectations in those areas, for example, it seems quite intentional, and with a specific point that compliments/ adds to her image as the child-like innocent who just wants love and happiness for the world. I can't think of an sp-2 who's not well-groomed... I mean, at least for something like an interview! Tori sits in what is known these days as the bisexual style (which-- it's hilariously accurate on that front), but that I also associate with so/sx: legs wide apart. Leaning forward. Spilling out. Careless. Messy. Even though 2 is also sp-last in structure, lacking that protective wall/ natural sense of containment, it's not quite the same-- correlating to the sx/so 2 is still, fundamentally, contraflow in structure. It's more held back-- coquettish from the side. A collectedness and intentionality. Less actually direct/ upfront, more indirect, waiting, inviting. I would argue that the 2//sx/so structure more in control of itself than the so/sx // 7 structures (wherever those elements occur in someone's type). I see that in the other sp 2s here, but I don't see it in Tori-- she seems more like a splashy, smirking Ariel |
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jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Feb 3, 2021 0:55:10 GMT -5
okay-- she looks pretty profoundly sp 2, here |
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Post by Roshan on Feb 3, 2021 5:42:29 GMT -5
I'll make a comprehensive reply but I've found a trove of teenage photos of her. They're protected for copying though, but here is one wholesome, sturdy farm girl.
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Post by Roshan on Feb 3, 2021 5:46:16 GMT -5
Oooh, even better.I'm going to make a long comprehensive reply but I'll just say now that she's very, very self-contained and you just can't type her based on how aroused she gets when playing and performing. She's reserved, proud, wholesome, and boundaried, while still being...effusive. Compliance >>> gluttony (or sloth). Hands either folded in lap or milking cows--until she gets near a piano.  |
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Post by Roshan on Feb 3, 2021 23:22:13 GMT -5
So this just popped up out of the blue. tbc'd tomorrow.
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Post by winter on Feb 4, 2021 16:54:13 GMT -5
I think Aurora is typed 2w3 here.
However Tori is the anomaly compared to your examples, yes. Maybe we just need more sp2 specifics.
However, I was about to ask the same question re waiting around and 9, I feel like that has been used as a reason for 9 and I also know we have talked about womb like qualities and 9 and what’s the different between the box and the womb?
Some of this is probably the 1 wing but I too would like the things mentioned clarified if possible.As I want to be able to understand the system more.
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Post by Roshan on Feb 4, 2021 23:34:44 GMT -5
Of course I see something else is possible for her, especially since this is a new typing. But the thing is, this is the sp 2 fixation. Sitting and waiting in a box wearing someone else's clothes wanting an autonomous identity via someone else, "excuse me can I be you for a while?" waiting for her own voice to come, 'got something to say but nothing comes". Starts off in the kitchen with the dog, saved by the garbage truck, "years go by and I'll still be waiting for somebody else to understand..." Look at my lips (her physical features), core issues very close to Six ("the sky is falling"--Chicken Little theme), petulant, girlish... See, for me, that "I've got something to say, I know, but nothing comes" feels very resonant as a 9... Maybe social + 9/7.
It's 9 but it's also sp 2. Seven on the other hand is 'least likely to shut up'!But that idea of missed moments/ not being able to express yourself/ 'be heard' feels more 9/7 than 2 for me... or perhaps I'm hilariously obliviously confirming my own 2ity 2 pride is pride in the lack of personal needs. The lack of personal needs (others have the problem, are the problem, not the 2) implies a fundamental lack of introspection, that of course 2 is in denial of. But 2 lives for other people, this is a lack of selfhood, of full personal identity, and it's also the reason why 2 must integrate to 4.
With sp 2, the inherent self-focus of the lead instinct is at odds with the other-focus of the lead type, creating an awareness of a gap...this in and of itself is "Fourish", there is a heightened awareness of 'lack'. Whence Naranjo's Fourish Two (though he didn't give that specific explanation for it but it's in there).
I don't feel like I see sp 2s having that sort of feeling about themselves and and announcing it-- Of course they don't usually announce it. Their primary fixation is pride. But Tori's always been healthy; she's always had integrated Four.that they're identity-less? The sp 2s I know/ have seen seem to have quite a strong 'brand'-- some of the strongest of anyone I can think of, actually. Thinking of Audrey, Aurora, Marianne, yes, they each had/have a sort of wide-eyed innocence/ 'take care of me' invitation, Well Tori's the only one who has these three factors together: high health so almost completely integrated 4, the One wing (so double line to Four) and sp/so, not sp/sx. But honestly, what is that sitting in a box then pouting in a baby doll negligee in Silent All These Years if not 'wide-eyed innoucence/take care of me' invitation. At the same time Tori is almost social first so with the 2w1 she's also the 'librarian'. drawing in. I know that 2 can and usually does 'add sx', if you will, but I feel like... it's more of a femme fatal, Not with One wing and sx last. (Also I'd hardly call Aurora a femme fatale). sensual, hyper-feminine flavor of sx (yes, less so in sp 2, but even then you can feel it). Tori's sx, wherever it's coming from, feels like it's more in the style of so/sx. I feel like Tori is more outward-pushing-- teasing, bratty, flirting, inviting you to come play in a more 7ish// so/sx way. Seven and so/sx basically duplicate each other, and oc she has the 7 fix. But actually Tori does more sitting still with hands folded, prim and proper, than teasing, bratty, inviting to come play, unless she's near a piano. And really, it's very unlikely that a so/sx of any type is going to name their midlife compilation album "Tales of a Librarian". She dressed up in a cheerleader's outfit, yes, but I don't see any actual sense of helplessness.
No sense of helplessness in "Why do we crucify ourselves"?
"And I hear my voice and it's been here, silent all these years". And the entire song "Winter" is about being helpless, and telling her Daddy she wants to make him and herself proud by standing up on her own...She's daring more than she is infantile-- No, she's just healthy. In the videos Silent All These Years and Crucify she just happens to dare to tell the truth about how infantile she is. In her little baby voice no less.I think adolescence/ teenager style/energy/behavior is so/sx, where as cutesy-child-baby give me big bows and knee socks What about mittens? "Winter" starts with how she forgot her mittens in the snow.and look at my giant wide baby eyes is more sp 2.
Which is Tori. Just healthy, One wing and sx last. Though tbh I did consider 2w1(1w9) to account for all that judgmental haughty peering out at you she does. But...when she gets near a piano it's too...loose and free for '2 in the One space' completely. |
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