hiddenglass
Swallow
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Post by hiddenglass on Oct 27, 2020 17:35:01 GMT -5
Jungian Cognitive Typology. Just a term to refer to any/all of the various cognitive typing systems descended from Jung
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Post by vincent on Oct 27, 2020 17:38:47 GMT -5
For example, their perceiving functions "controls" or "gathers". Their judging functions are about positioning : "self above the tribe" or "tribe above self".
Yup, that Ni first and Ni second gamma couple.
Yeah. Them.
Ridicously mistyped people mistyping others is a depressingly common thing in this field. But in their case, the ridiculousness of the mistyping is extreme. And the rate of mistyping is industrial.
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
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Post by hiddenglass on Oct 27, 2020 17:52:41 GMT -5
Well, Auburn will say stuff like "i don't know much about sioconics, i haven't learned it in depth, i can't comment on it"
And yet you will find "quadra descriptions" on his website...
So i guess that separation is geometrically non-euclidian. Or something like that. dividing 16 types into 4 groups and calling them "quadras" is hardly sufficient grounds to dismiss the claim of separation. Dave has never read Jung but has stolen essentially all the terminology. Saying "Auburn uses the word quadra to refer to type groupings" as if that implies something about the system Socionically is a bit of a reach imo but the relationships that are "intertype" are "inter[socio]type" not "inter[cognitive]type", and so, to the extent that these types are different, to use Vultological signals derived from CT on sociotypes demands justification, does it not?
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
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Post by hiddenglass on Oct 27, 2020 17:53:24 GMT -5
Ridicously mistyped people mistyping others is a depressingly common thing in this field. But in their case, the ridiculousness of the mistyping is extreme. And the rate of mistyping is industrial.
y'ain't kiddin.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 27, 2020 17:55:55 GMT -5
OPS on the other hand is a 4 function system with lots of normative / prescriptive ambitions. You'll see people in their (many) facebook groups posting endless very heady screeds about the "demons" at play in their lives...about how my "demon Fe" and my "missing play animal" are ruining my life.
It goes against the most basic principles.
"At least do no harm".
Not everyone should be "dabbling" with this stuff anyway.
But if they are going to do it, it's better and safer to do it within a system that at the very least is seriously considering the shadow, instead of self-servingly half-assing it.
And the reason they can half-ass it with their "normative prescriptive" system (which is low introverted intution) and cash in on it so easily and have "(many) facebook groups posting...screeds" about their "missing play animal" is because they're both completely comfortable in the collective Fe swim. Which is why D. Supapawa has Japanese smile syndrome. And if he understood what a PolR was he would understand that he metabolizes collective feeling all the time with ease; he makes his living off of it easily with his little better half. And then he would know that he can't be NiTe and then eventually might even realize he's low introverted intution too. Where does this guy with this formulaic lego toy system come claiming to have the same first function as Jung (NiFE)?--who let's not forget was working practically all alone. That thing of theirs gamma? Him the same cognitive type as me? If he started with the PolR function he might be able to type himself eventually.
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
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Post by hiddenglass on Oct 27, 2020 17:57:39 GMT -5
Of course we haven't. If we had it would be in the Study Hall. But it 's pretty much all contained in that Eliot thread I linked for you. If you want I can illustrate it with a concise example. It's a mark against them because Dave and his Japanese smile mask syndrome glued on juvenile ingratiating perma-grin interpreting everything in relation to 'tribe' is not not not not not not not not not not not not Fe Polr. my applause for using an even number of "not"sI don't think "learning about X" implies any measure of implicit acceptance of its tenets, at all
I also, however, haven't stated any rejection of PoLR, either
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Post by Roshan on Oct 27, 2020 17:57:58 GMT -5
The very first thing you notice about this guy is that he's a 'very nice guy' in the most affable ordinary sense of the word. Swimming in the collective feeling stream.
Not Fe PolR. Not not not not not INTJ. Not gamma period.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 27, 2020 18:00:58 GMT -5
Well I have to keep on repeating not so I don't say the actual words that come to mind about him. Especially since proboards is working on fixing the forum. Gamma becomes easily murderous darling. It's the Fi>Fe, Se>Si, Ni>Ne and Te>Ti. We've been through this before in various guises.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 27, 2020 18:05:01 GMT -5
I don't think "learning about X" implies any measure of implicit acceptance of its tenets, at all
I also, however, haven't stated any rejection of PoLR, either Well, okay, but you asked why it was a mark against these two not to use what vincent had said was THE most important typing factor instead of just asking why he had said that. And this right after agreeing they have like a folie a deux operation going on. Seems like you're coming in with a pretty strong predisposition against PolR actually being 'a thing'.
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Post by vincent on Oct 27, 2020 18:13:38 GMT -5
dividing 16 types into 4 groups and calling them "quadras" is hardly sufficient grounds to dismiss the claim of separation. Dave has never read Jung but has stolen essentially all the terminology. Saying "Auburn uses the word quadra to refer to type groupings" as if that implies something about the system Socionically is a bit of a reach imobut the relationships that are "intertype" are "inter[socio]type" not "inter[cognitive]type", and so, to the extent that these types are different, to use Vultological signals derived from CT on sociotypes demands justification, does it not?
I'll get back to this soon. After i give you my general take on Auburn's system.
tbcd.
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
Enneagram Core Fix: 5⁴
Relationship Status: searching
Occupation(s): idling
Education: ongoing
Interests: growing
Country/Region: chicago
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Post by hiddenglass on Oct 27, 2020 18:15:17 GMT -5
Well, okay, but you asked why it was a mark against these two not to use what vincent had said was THE most important typing factor instead of just asking why he had said that. And this right after agreeing they have like a folie a deux operation going on. Seems like you're coming in with a pretty strong predisposition against PolR actually being 'a thing'. perhaps, but I'm not. My intuitively-affected disposition when learning any system is antagonistic… "trial by fire, prize what survives."
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Post by Roshan on Oct 29, 2020 13:38:27 GMT -5
So here's the off-the-charts high Ni gamma couple. I actually did and do think she's gamma but with some 'extenuating factor/s' that make her a partner in this very, very seemingly delta-ish operation. Him not gamma no way no how and I wound up cooking up a hypothesis with vincent before about their types, but would like to hear other people's opinions on it first and also whether vincent still thinks it holds up after watching this unparalleled example of trenchant individualistic introversion. )
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Post by vincent on Oct 29, 2020 18:07:07 GMT -5
Hmm, yes, i think it holds up.
For her, i'm more and more convinced that our most recent theory is indeed correct.
And for him... i can't help but notice that, interestingly, he is doing here the exact opposite of what Asaf Avidan is doing.
One is hell bent on "hiding the strings" like a magician.
The other one is showing them off, and not much else.
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Post by vincent on Nov 1, 2020 16:44:44 GMT -5
So, about Auburn's system :
First i should say that he is far from the worst of them and a lot of it is really good.
His criticism of MBTI and his distrust of "behaviorism" are mostly sound.
He does have great eyes and a great sense of details, and a lot (but not ALL) of his vultology is consistent with our own findings. His approach might be too entomologistic and not holistical enough, some signal/function associations might be wrong, etc, but he is definitely onto something.
His function definitions and "mythologies" are among the best out there. They owes a lot to his initial background in what he calls JFC-MBTI (Jungian cognitive function MBTI), but they are a very good synthesis of it.
He is also pretty good at sampling and illustrating them.
In other words : the Si and the Ne of his system is globally, generally good.
The issues comes from the Fe (of his internet Empire) and the (lack of) Ti of the system itself.
His stuff is based on the assumption that strength of signal = strength of a function = order in the stack / level of development.
This assumption is just wrong imo. Depending on the slot, what "strong" means, and how it looks like, will be different. For example, and broadly speaking, conscious functions will be more "stable" and shadow functions more "volatile". This is two (antagonistic) kind of strength already.
Sometimes, high mastery of a function makes it less visible and obvious (it's particularly true for interfacing functions) Sometimes, the lack of a function makes its manifestation especially obvious (it's particulary true for deliberation function in polr slot)
Sometimes, shadow functions, especially demonstrative and role, are more visible than conscious functions.
Development patterns aren't the only factors affecting this.
Context, health, and subtype affects it too. Sometimes drastically.
Obviously, this lead to many mistypes.
Especially since he doesn't put much trust in "behavorial clues" for double checking purpose.
And those many mistypes lead to a "tainted" set of datas.
Which lead to wrong theoretical conclusions.
And so on.
If "CT" was a 8 functions system, with a decent enough understanding of slots, it would certainly lead to amazing results already.
Note that we do NOT use his vultological charts in our own typing process.
Our apprehension of physical clues and "energetic signatures" is a lot more holistical (and informed by correlations with enneagram) than his own. It happens sometimes that we look at his vultologies at the end of a typing to see if/how our findings correlates with his.
which allowed us to confirm/infirm/correct a few over the months.
But we are not "doing" vultology, and we are not trying to systematically correct it either.
tbcd.
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