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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 10:02:16 GMT -5
Thanks a lot anthony! I'll address some of your points later.Anyone have thoughts on this?
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adrian
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 222
Enneagram Core Fix: 2w1
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Post by adrian on Oct 2, 2020 15:10:02 GMT -5
I'm not finished because I have to get ready for work (I have to go in an hour early). I'll answer the rest of the questions later on tonight. So far, here's what I got. 1. Sometimes in photos the poet seems Se PolR, other times he doesn't. Not just Se but all the extroverted functions, are associated with action-in-the-world. What is the poet's ultimate stance on action-in-the-world in the poem? What does this suggest about the slots of 'absolute value' (first, third, sixth, and eighth?).The action-in-the-world in this poem is one with resonance with the flow time and nature; acting within the natural flow of time. Time is compared to a sea, and we are in sync with its flow. Oceans signify the boundlessness and timelessness of existence. And it’s not just time that we have resonance with but all of all the life that inhabits and encounters the seas. Our oneness and synchronicity with the natural world proceeds anything that modernity has presented us with, “The sea howl And the sea yelp, are different voices Often together heard: the whine in the rigging, The menace and caress of wave that breaks on water, The distant rote in the granite teeth, And the wailing warning from the approaching headland Are all sea voices, and the heaving groaner Rounded homewards, and the seagull: And under the oppression of the silent fog The tolling bell Measures time not our time, rung by the unhurried Ground swell, a time Older than the time of chronometers, older Than time counted by anxious worried women Lying awake, calculating the future, Trying to unweave, unwind, unravel And piece together the past and the future,”This resonance and knowing were always within us before the tools of calculating time were present. If anything these tools alienate us from this inner knowing by atomizing and unnaturally delineating time into past, present, and future. “Then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges. The problem once solved, the brown god is almost forgotten By the dwellers in cities—ever, however, implacable. Keeping his seasons and rages, destroyer, reminder Of what men choose to forget. Unhonoured, unpropitiated By worshippers of the machine, but waiting, watching and waiting. His rhythm was present in the nursery bedroom, In the rank ailanthus of the April dooryard, In the smell of grapes on the autumn table, And the evening circle in the winter gaslight” “It seems, as one becomes older, That the past has another pattern, and ceases to be a mere sequence— Or even development: the latter a partial fallacy Encouraged by superficial notions of evolution, Which becomes, in the popular mind, a means of disowning the past. The moments of happiness—not the sense of well-being, Fruition, fulfilment, security or affection, Or even a very good dinner, but the sudden illumination— We had the experience but missed the meaning, And approach to the meaning restores the experience In a different form, beyond any meaning We can assign to happiness. I have said before That the past experience revived in the meaning Is not the experience of one life only But of many generations—not forgetting Something that is probably quite ineffable: The backward look behind the assurance Of recorded history, the backward half-look Over the shoulder, towards the primitive terror. Now, we come to discover that the moments of agony (Whether, or not, due to misunderstanding, Having hoped for the wrong things or dreaded the wrong things, Is not in question) are likewise permanent With such permanence as time has. We appreciate this better In the agony of others, nearly experienced, Involving ourselves, than in our own. For our own past is covered by the currents of action, But the torment of others remains an experience Unqualified, unworn by subsequent attrition. People change, and smile: but the agony abides. Time the destroyer is time the preserver, Like the river with its cargo of dead negroes, cows and chicken coops, The bitter apple, and the bite in the apple. And the ragged rock in the restless waters, Waves wash over it, fogs conceal it; On a halcyon day it is merely a monument, In navigable weather it is always a seamark To lay a course by: but in the sombre season Or the sudden fury, is what it always was.If we act within the world, it is because our actions are backed by generations and layers of resonances of time, especially before a time we became alienated from this oneness and inner knowingness. To me this either has to be inferior Se or Se polr and leaning towards the latter for reasons I’ll illuminate later. And Si valuing. 2. Consensus is leaning toward FiNe. Fi is subjective intrapersonal valuation, including intensity of personal feelings. Is the fundamental stance of this poem actually concerned with intense personal feelings? / 5. What the hell is going on with his Te? If he doesn't value it absolutely, what's he doing with it? Is he making some kind of statement about it? If so, what, and where could it slot?
It’s not so much concerned with personal feelings per se, but the poem does exemplify Edin, “Edin is the protector of the life principle, and often takes the form of a spiritual guardian of animals, rivers, lakes and forests. Edin appears in folklore as sprites or spirits, each of which protects their cherished plot of nature in the same manner as Fi protects the boundaries of its prized identity.” - cognitivetype.com/fi-behaviorism-mythology/To me, this poem is a higher expression of Fi - attunement, exploration, explanation, and guardianship of the life principle. This transcends the realm of personal feelings into the realm of how our individual essences exemplify this universal principle. The metaphysical beauty of high Fi lies in the innate understanding of the relationship between the individual and the universal, and the individual uniquely expresses the universal. This poem also seems like a lamentation on our alienation with this life principle - a lamentation over codification and objectification of life and erasing of meaning deep personal and universal meaning that comes with them. To me this spells Fi’s tension with Te. Fi’s conception of Te. Fi is in the first slot. 3. How does the poem start and how does it end? If you were to assign a function to the very beginning and the very end, the first and last eleven words, what two functions would they be? What does this suggest about how they could slot? “I do not know much about gods; but I think that the river Is a strong brown god—sullen, untamed and intractable, Patient to some degree, at first recognised as a frontier; Useful, untrustworthy, as a conveyor of commerce; Then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges. The problem once solved, the brown god is almost forgotten By the dwellers in cities—ever, however, implacable. Keeping his seasons and rages, destroyer, reminder Of what men choose to forget. Unhonoured, unpropitiated By worshippers of the machine, but waiting, watching and waiting. His rhythm was present in the nursery bedroom, In the rank ailanthus of the April dooryard, In the smell of grapes on the autumn table, And the evening circle in the winter gaslight”This deity, the river, gets objectified into a tool of science/production. At first the prospect is hopeful with the river’s ability to provide commerce and plenitude, but soon this natural deity merely becomes the tool and object for another, more artificial deity - machines or to expand it more, capitalism. Nonetheless, river rages on and his spirit lives on in the trees, grapes, and evening circles. This is Fi in the first slot and Te inferior. Si seems present as well. “The hint half guessed, the gift half understood, is Incarnation. Here the impossible union Of spheres of existence is actual, Here the past and future Are conquered, and reconciled, Where action were otherwise movement Of that which is only moved And has in it no source of movement— Driven by daemonic, chthonic Powers. And right action is freedom From past and future also. For most of us, this is the aim Never here to be realised; Who are only undefeated Because we have gone on trying; We, content at the last If our temporal reversion nourish (Not too far from the yew-tree) The life of significant soil.”
Not sure with this part to be honest (I’m not an experienced poem reader). Prior to this part, the poet was speaking of how people use drugs, playing cards (I’m guessing tarot cards specifically), horoscopes, and pentagrams, etc to reach gnosis or a type of boundlessness, to overcome that alienation that one experiences. To experience this is “the occupation of a saint” but it’s no occupation since it’s all there if we just listen, we are the music. Nature is incarnated in us. The boundlessness is timeless (I think). I would say Si in the 3rd slot and Ni as the 6th function which I’ll get into later.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 17:40:59 GMT -5
Thanks adrian ; again, I'll get to this in a bit. For now lol just to clarify, I asked about the first and last eleven words, not lines (it's fine that you wrote that though, not wasted). anthony didn't quite get all I was thinking of either. The eleven are: "I do not know much about gods; but I think that" and "(Not too far from the yew-tree) The life of significant soil." Note the bold. * * * btw I never did a Q&A here before but a couple people said they'd be into it. It's working well but when it comes up again (probably will), I think it should be leaner. For now it's kind of good that others get to see the specifics involved in slotting but in future I think less will be more.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 20:22:06 GMT -5
Okay I'll wait til adrian posts more and hopefully Amy answers too. We seem to all agree on Ni sixth so the question is is it FiNe or TiNe jumper configuration so TiSi. Amy says FiNe will be FiSi. I agree with Ni sixth, which means we're on a page with Se PolR. So the question atm is: FiNeSiTe FeNiSeTi or TiNeSiFe TeNiSeFi. Sooooo, the attitude, use, function, place of Te becomes important here. Te is not absolutely valued. Is it being sought and found or is it being ignored and unignored expediently?, we may ask. Beyond that we have a not uncommon conundrum with 'slotting' highly unusual people: which is the frame and which is the role? In either case the role is very strong. This poem is very Ti heavy for a poem and Fi is obvious but if you took out the verse endings and just wrote it straight out, a lot of it could read like a poetic, feeling-woven expository essay (Ti). So we have to ask, with all that Fi poeticism, must we rule out Ti frame? If so, on what grounds?
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 20:26:18 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 20:29:51 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 21:50:50 GMT -5
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Post by Roshan on Oct 2, 2020 21:58:21 GMT -5
"by Vincent Jun 4, 2020 at 1:44pm Carballido looks Se polr to me. Neither prey nor predator. Just guileless. My ct guess for him would be TiNe.
by Roshan of Sharon on Jun 4, 2020 at 1:49pm Well, I thought FiNe vincent but you may very well be right. Because what I cared about was the 'world view' he communicated to me, not the 'story'. And after all, the play is ultimately about 'sense-making' and its limitations.
by Roshan of Sharon on Jun 4, 2020 at 1:51pm Also it's a more 'robust' Se polr than FiNe, if that makes sense.
He may be Se polr but he knows the cosmos we're part of is not."
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Post by vincent on Oct 3, 2020 6:18:57 GMT -5
This is VERY interesting.
All of it. The poem itself. The ct enigma. And also what happened here in this thread.
He definetely fooled me to.
i can't wait for the reveal.
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adrian
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 222
Enneagram Core Fix: 2w1
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Post by adrian on Oct 3, 2020 9:56:40 GMT -5
Last part of the questionnaire. 4. It has been repeatedly noted from photos that gamma is very unlikely yet we are reluctant to discard NiTe completely as at least a possiblity. How much does the poem really 'collapse meaning'? If it's not enough for NiTe, what configuration could push Ni so much into the forefront? / 6. Si seems very prominent. Someone still keeps SiTe on the back burner as possible. If SiTe is not the ct, given all the above, what configuration/s would still enable such a strong presence of Si?The poet’s Ni is very strong but i don’t think it’s valued. There’s a rootedness in his presentation of humanity’s place in the natural world. We are filled with memory of it’s primordial past before other trappings have gotten in the way. In order to understand the whole humanity, one needs to understand this context it’s situated in (the origins). His poem makes me think of the concept of Min, “The spiritual experience of Si is known as Min, or the myth of the Earth. As a character, he appears as a Senex or a Wise Old Man which guards or speaks on behalf of a holy site. At other times Min is archetypally embodied in the form of a sacred scroll, an ancient library or a cathedral. The experience of Min is accompanied by a very potent spiritual evocation; a feeling of smallness in the face of the immeasurable past. It is a direct confrontation with things that dwarf your existence a hundred times over. One’s life suddenly takes a wider perspective; hit by the notion that these things have been around long before you were born, and before you were scarcely an idea in someone’s mind. A feeling of reverence is evoked by this sentiment in the beholder.” - cognitivetype.com/si-behaviorism-mythology/The poet could be Si first considering how much of a presence it has, but I don’t know. The Ni seems too strong for it to be merely a role function. 10. Express in your own words in a paragraph or so (here or just for yourself) the meaning of the poem.The poem is a metaphor of humanity’s existence in the grand scheme of things. The voyage through the ocean is venturing into the mysteries, potential dangers, uncertainty, and boundlessness that life ultimately has to offer. The best way to go about this is to realize and accept our place in the grand scheme of things, and to let the will of the world guide you. On the ocean, time is limitless, past, present, and future converge into a singular point. The trappings of modernity and technology have atomized and limited time to distinct phases, and alienated us from the innate, natural knowing of the world that we possess. They ultimately alienated us from our past, “Or even development: the latter a partial fallacy Encouraged by superficial notions of evolution, Which becomes, in the popular mind, a means of disowning the past.”Evolution cannot occur without acknowledging the past and owing some reverence to it. Our actions and thoughts are backed by generations, and are congealed with meaning from past revenants. We are products of the past, especially a primordial one. ***** How would I type the poet? He's definitely some JiSi jumper. Comparing his photos to Carballido, he has more gravitas. The gravitas coming from the double introverted functions and the Si rootedness. In his older pictures he looks more grounded. And coming to read his poem again, I'm not so sure anymore. His poem is less magical and fairy dust than I would expect of a FiNe and more "poetic, feeling-woven expository essay (Ti)" as Roshan succinctly put it. I think i'll settle on TiSi with heavy Ni 6th and a strong Fi role. TiNes, especially young ones, will have a soulful look more so than FiNes, and this is what I see in this poet. Carballido is more wide-eyed (could chalk up it up to being Ne subtype), but in his youthful pic, he also has that soulful look. I'm excited for the reveal .
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Post by Roshan on Oct 3, 2020 15:23:59 GMT -5
Probably biggest poetic influence on me "when I was your age" (younguns, though at the time there was Whitman and Lorca too). And part of why I started parting ways with a movement that continually trashed "old dead white men". Obviously I never thought about ct when I would read him regularly but since I learned it recently, I always assumed he was NiTe like me. I thought about posting him after I watched the presidential debate which inspired me to post his poem "The Hollow Men' on facebook (which I promptly deleted to not give the tyke away). Once I started looking at his adult pictures I realized that 'vultologically' there was a problem with NiTe, even with NiFi jumper, but I figured, well, what about "Q"? But I also realized that his Si in his most famous poem, The Wasteland, is overwhelmingly heavy, even for role, and that there is an awful lot of cataloguing of 'things that are of the sea' in the poem here. So I was swayed to FiSi. But when anthony said TiNe I almost immediately realized it was TiSi, and that a lot of what seems like absolute value upper slot Fi really is not--it's collective F seeking, Fe, corresponding, as anthony implicitly noted, to Fi role. I also realized that he is not really collapsing meaning, meaning is not converging in quite the same way as Ni dom or even FiNi jumper. Phenomena do converge (parallel to Carballido's train wreck in I Too Speak of the Rose, "cosmic Se") but there isn't quite primacy of the collapse of the meanings of the words. In The Dry Sauvages he ends on the Yew Tree and significant soil, which is his jumping agenda--Ti " I do not know... but I think"-->Si Mythology (bottom of link, Min having been noted before by adrian ). This all happens via Ni, so Ti-->Ni-->Si, but phenomona remain catalogued qua phenomena. T. S. Eliot, born in St. Louis on the Mississippi River (as the second child photo tells you) is TiSi. There's more to say but for now, here's the first part of a six-part documentary.
Afarin!
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Post by Roshan on Oct 3, 2020 15:28:45 GMT -5
The Hollow Men by T.S. Eliot
Mistah Kurtz - he dead.
A penny for the Old Guy
I
We are the hollow men We are the stuffed men Leaning together Headpiece filled with straw. Alas! Our dried voices, when We whisper together Are quiet and meaningless As wind in dry grass or rats' feet over broken glass In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour, Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed With direct eyes, to death's other kingdom Remember us - if at all - not as lost Violent souls, but only As the hollow men The stuffed men.
II
Eyes I dare not meet in dreams In death's dream kingdom These do not appear: There, the eyes are Sunlight on a broken column There, is a tree swinging And voices are In the wind's singing More distant and more solemn Than a fading star.
Let me be no nearer In death's dream kingdom Let me also wear Such deliberate disguises Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves In a field Behaving as the wind behaves No nearer -
Not that final meeting In the twilight kingdom
III
This is the dead land This is cactus land Here the stone images Are raised, here they receive The supplication of a dead man's hand Under the twinkle of a fading star.
Is it like this In death's other kingdom Waking alone At the hour when we are Trembling with tenderness Lips that would kiss Form prayers to broken stone.
IV
The eyes are not here There are no eyes here In this valley of dying stars In this hollow valley This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
In this last of meeting places We grope together And avoid speech Gathered on this beach of this tumid river
Sightless, unless The eyes reappear As the perpetual star Multifoliate rose Of death's twilight kingdom The hope only Of empty men.
V
Here we go round the prickly pear Prickly pear prickly pear Here we go round the prickly pear At five o'clock in the morning.
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
Between the conception And the creation Between the emotion And the response Falls the Shadow
Life is very long
Between the desire And the spasm Between the potency And the existence Between the essence And the descent Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom
For Thine is Life is For Thine is the
This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but with a whimper.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 3, 2020 15:42:44 GMT -5
The first poem I posted is the third of The Four Quartets and it actually opens like this but I thought the title might give it away. THE DRY SALVAGES (No. 3 of 'Four Quartets')
(The Dry Salvages—presumably les trois sauvages—is a small group of rocks, with a beacon, off the N.E. coast of Cape Ann, Massachusetts. Salvages is pronounced to rhyme with assuages. Groaner: a whistling buoy.)
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Post by Roshan on Oct 3, 2020 19:30:04 GMT -5
The first part of the doc uses the "Russell Hotel" music from the Broadway musical Cats, based on T.S. Eliot's Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. In the end of the play the old lady alley cat dies; this is its evocation of what Eliot meant in Sauvages among others by "the final annunciation" ("and the moment of death is every moment"). So, I know, I know, we need time to digest all this...but...it's infinite...so put this in your esophagus too: what the hell is going on with his Te after all? As the doc says, he ran Faber and Faber for forty years (after having been a schoolteacher and a banker). What is his fundamental stance on the place, function, meaning of, need for "Right Action"-In-The-World" not only in his life but also in the first poem?
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Post by Roshan on Oct 4, 2020 7:35:34 GMT -5
"At the time of death"—that is the one action (And the time of death is every moment) Which shall fructify in the lives of others: And do not think of the fruit of action. Fare forward."
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