anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Oct 1, 2020 0:22:04 GMT -5
After looking at the first picture, I thought TiSe. He had such a sharp gaze for a toddler, and that subtly suggestive head tilt to the right(from our POV) gave me the impression that he was introvert-edly penetrating the physical space, implying force. I think I unintentionally dismissed the wide-eyed and curious look due to the age, but he seemed to maintain it.
From the 2nd photo to the last one posted, he appears to have high 'N,' and he does overall look Si/Ne to me. He almost seems to have achieved a sort of harmony between physical groundedness(though without force/kinetic energy) and airy-floatiness, with the latter more upfront.
I'm going with TiNe.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 10:54:33 GMT -5
I'm not able to make a second poll, some kind of glitch, so just write your choice here. anthony is TiNe. adrian Amy vincent, anyone?
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Post by vincent on Oct 1, 2020 11:40:01 GMT -5
Ugh. Double ugh actually. One because i've seen him before (actually i think i've seen some of these pics before) and it doesn't "click" yet.
One because i'm still not sure at all...
Te is pretty clear to me in the older pics.
And so is Ni imo.
This alone would suggest NiTe.
Gamma introvert intuitive rather than delta.
In some pics he looks like he might be Se polr, on other not so much.
His S impressions and energy varies quite a lot.
And this variation itself might be consistent with Se inf/Si role. Maybe.
But still, i can't forget that i saw (or thought i saw ?) Fi first in the younger pics.
And usually and theoretically, at that young age, what you see is mostly primary, auxiliary and 6th...
I hesitate between NiTe and FiSi jumper with lots of (early) Ni 6th and a not-so-obvious polr ? Occam would say NiTe, i guess. Stubborn me will stick with FiNe for now.
While i wonder about other options. Like one of those very weird creative subtype extraverts maybe.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 11:50:09 GMT -5
Okay so anthony TiNe and vincent FiNe. What I'm going to do now while we wait for more votes is post something he wrote and only Anthony and Vincent should read it and see if it corroborates their vote or changes it. But no one else should read it until they vote. The first purpose of Type the Tyke is to train our eyes with visual typing--a practice I don't endorse to type anyone conclusively (in as much as a typing can ever be conclusive) but as part of the toolkit. Type the Tyke has many other purposes after the reveal, but the first is just 'eye training'. So don't peek at the text yet, Amy, adrian, others!
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 11:57:42 GMT -5
The poem is long but for the people involved not a hard read. Don't google it yet. If you think you know who he is now, pm me to check.
I
I do not know much about gods; but I think that the river Is a strong brown god—sullen, untamed and intractable, Patient to some degree, at first recognised as a frontier; Useful, untrustworthy, as a conveyor of commerce; Then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges. The problem once solved, the brown god is almost forgotten By the dwellers in cities—ever, however, implacable. Keeping his seasons and rages, destroyer, reminder Of what men choose to forget. Unhonoured, unpropitiated By worshippers of the machine, but waiting, watching and waiting. His rhythm was present in the nursery bedroom, In the rank ailanthus of the April dooryard, In the smell of grapes on the autumn table, And the evening circle in the winter gaslight.
The river is within us, the sea is all about us; The sea is the land's edge also, the granite Into which it reaches, the beaches where it tosses Its hints of earlier and other creation: The starfish, the horseshoe crab, the whale's backbone; The pools where it offers to our curiosity The more delicate algae and the sea anemone. It tosses up our losses, the torn seine, The shattered lobsterpot, the broken oar And the gear of foreign dead men. The sea has many voices, Many gods and many voices.
The salt is on the briar rose, The fog is in the fir trees.
The sea howl And the sea yelp, are different voices Often together heard: the whine in the rigging, The menace and caress of wave that breaks on water, The distant rote in the granite teeth, And the wailing warning from the approaching headland Are all sea voices, and the heaving groaner Rounded homewards, and the seagull: And under the oppression of the silent fog The tolling bell Measures time not our time, rung by the unhurried Ground swell, a time Older than the time of chronometers, older Than time counted by anxious worried women Lying awake, calculating the future, Trying to unweave, unwind, unravel And piece together the past and the future, Between midnight and dawn, when the past is all deception, The future futureless, before the morning watch When time stops and time is never ending; And the ground swell, that is and was from the beginning, Clangs The bell.
II.
Where is there an end of it, the soundless wailing, The silent withering of autumn flowers Dropping their petals and remaining motionless; Where is there an end to the drifting wreckage, The prayer of the bone on the beach, the unprayable Prayer at the calamitous annunciation?
There is no end, but addition: the trailing Consequence of further days and hours, While emotion takes to itself the emotionless Years of living among the breakage Of what was believed in as the most reliable— And therefore the fittest for renunciation.
There is the final addition, the failing Pride or resentment at failing powers, The unattached devotion which might pass for devotionless, In a drifting boat with a slow leakage, The silent listening to the undeniable Clamour of the bell of the last annunciation.
Where is the end of them, the fishermen sailing Into the wind's tail, where the fog cowers? We cannot think of a time that is oceanless Or of an ocean not littered with wastage Or of a future that is not liable Like the past, to have no destination.
We have to think of them as forever bailing, Setting and hauling, while the North East lowers Over shallow banks unchanging and erosionless Or drawing their money, drying sails at dockage; Not as making a trip that will be unpayable For a haul that will not bear examination.
There is no end of it, the voiceless wailing, No end to the withering of withered flowers, To the movement of pain that is painless and motionless, To the drift of the sea and the drifting wreckage, The bone's prayer to Death its God. Only the hardly, barely prayable Prayer of the one Annunciation.
It seems, as one becomes older, That the past has another pattern, and ceases to be a mere sequence— Or even development: the latter a partial fallacy Encouraged by superficial notions of evolution, Which becomes, in the popular mind, a means of disowning the past. The moments of happiness—not the sense of well-being, Fruition, fulfilment, security or affection, Or even a very good dinner, but the sudden illumination— We had the experience but missed the meaning, And approach to the meaning restores the experience In a different form, beyond any meaning We can assign to happiness. I have said before That the past experience revived in the meaning Is not the experience of one life only But of many generations—not forgetting Something that is probably quite ineffable: The backward look behind the assurance Of recorded history, the backward half-look Over the shoulder, towards the primitive terror. Now, we come to discover that the moments of agony (Whether, or not, due to misunderstanding, Having hoped for the wrong things or dreaded the wrong things, Is not in question) are likewise permanent With such permanence as time has. We appreciate this better In the agony of others, nearly experienced, Involving ourselves, than in our own. For our own past is covered by the currents of action, But the torment of others remains an experience Unqualified, unworn by subsequent attrition. People change, and smile: but the agony abides. Time the destroyer is time the preserver, Like the river with its cargo of dead negroes, cows and chicken coops, The bitter apple, and the bite in the apple. And the ragged rock in the restless waters, Waves wash over it, fogs conceal it; On a halcyon day it is merely a monument, In navigable weather it is always a seamark To lay a course by: but in the sombre season Or the sudden fury, is what it always was.
III
I sometimes wonder if that is what Krishna meant— Among other things—or one way of putting the same thing: That the future is a faded song, a Royal Rose or a lavender spray Of wistful regret for those who are not yet here to regret, Pressed between yellow leaves of a book that has never been opened. And the way up is the way down, the way forward is the way back. You cannot face it steadily, but this thing is sure, That time is no healer: the patient is no longer here. When the train starts, and the passengers are settled To fruit, periodicals and business letters (And those who saw them off have left the platform) Their faces relax from grief into relief, To the sleepy rhythm of a hundred hours. Fare forward, travellers! not escaping from the past Into different lives, or into any future; You are not the same people who left that station Or who will arrive at any terminus, While the narrowing rails slide together behind you; And on the deck of the drumming liner Watching the furrow that widens behind you, You shall not think 'the past is finished' Or 'the future is before us'. At nightfall, in the rigging and the aerial, Is a voice descanting (though not to the ear, The murmuring shell of time, and not in any language) 'Fare forward, you who think that you are voyaging; You are not those who saw the harbour Receding, or those who will disembark. Here between the hither and the farther shore While time is withdrawn, consider the future And the past with an equal mind. At the moment which is not of action or inaction You can receive this: "on whatever sphere of being The mind of a man may be intent At the time of death"—that is the one action (And the time of death is every moment) Which shall fructify in the lives of others: And do not think of the fruit of action. Fare forward.
O voyagers, O seamen, You who came to port, and you whose bodies Will suffer the trial and judgement of the sea, Or whatever event, this is your real destination.' So Krishna, as when he admonished Arjuna On the field of battle.
Not fare well, But fare forward, voyagers.
IV
Lady, whose shrine stands on the promontory, Pray for all those who are in ships, those Whose business has to do with fish, and Those concerned with every lawful traffic And those who conduct them.
Repeat a prayer also on behalf of Women who have seen their sons or husbands Setting forth, and not returning: Figlia del tuo figlio, Queen of Heaven.
Also pray for those who were in ships, and Ended their voyage on the sand, in the sea's lips Or in the dark throat which will not reject them Or wherever cannot reach them the sound of the sea bell's Perpetual angelus.
V
To communicate with Mars, converse with spirits, To report the behaviour of the sea monster, Describe the horoscope, haruspicate or scry, Observe disease in signatures, evoke Biography from the wrinkles of the palm And tragedy from fingers; release omens By sortilege, or tea leaves, riddle the inevitable With playing cards, fiddle with pentagrams Or barbituric acids, or dissect The recurrent image into pre-conscious terrors— To explore the womb, or tomb, or dreams; all these are usual Pastimes and drugs, and features of the press: And always will be, some of them especially When there is distress of nations and perplexity Whether on the shores of Asia, or in the Edgware Road. Men's curiosity searches past and future And clings to that dimension. But to apprehend The point of intersection of the timeless With time, is an occupation for the saint— No occupation either, but something given And taken, in a lifetime's death in love, Ardour and selflessness and self-surrender. For most of us, there is only the unattended Moment, the moment in and out of time, The distraction fit, lost in a shaft of sunlight, The wild thyme unseen, or the winter lightning Or the waterfall, or music heard so deeply That it is not heard at all, but you are the music While the music lasts. These are only hints and guesses, Hints followed by guesses; and the rest Is prayer, observance, discipline, thought and action. The hint half guessed, the gift half understood, is Incarnation. Here the impossible union Of spheres of existence is actual, Here the past and future Are conquered, and reconciled, Where action were otherwise movement Of that which is only moved And has in it no source of movement— Driven by daemonic, chthonic Powers. And right action is freedom From past and future also. For most of us, this is the aim Never here to be realised; Who are only undefeated Because we have gone on trying; We, content at the last If our temporal reversion nourish (Not too far from the yew-tree) The life of significant soil.
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adrian
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 222
Enneagram Core Fix: 2w1
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Post by adrian on Oct 1, 2020 12:21:06 GMT -5
Just woke up and after sleeping on it, I’ll choose FiNe. Overall, he looks introverted. SiTe would’ve been a close second. Yesterday I said his gaze was both faraway looking and introverted at the same time, this easily could be Pi>Fi, specifically Ni which metabolizes things holistically and is experiencing the full coalescence of time. I could see why Vincent sees NiTe as well. But for now FiNe is my vote.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 12:21:58 GMT -5
"Figlia del tuo figlio" (daughter of your son, said to Mary)
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 12:40:51 GMT -5
okay, two FiNe, one TiNe, based on photos only. And Amy 's vote is next unless someone else hops on board unexpectedly .
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Post by vincent on Oct 1, 2020 13:08:08 GMT -5
Oh wow
I'm starting to think that most or all of my initial assumptions might be wrong.
There is a lot here, ct wise. And sometimes it sounds like Pe dom/Pi seeking, at first glance at least.
I will need more reads, in a quieter context, before i even try to "slot" this.
tbcd
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Amy
Hummingbird
Posts: 149
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by Amy on Oct 1, 2020 13:12:30 GMT -5
Fi-Te seems right to me still. I’m a bit apprehensive if he’s really Se PoLR looking at some of the older photos, but I’m still going with FiNe. Looking at the poem though I wondered if he was an Ni user, time comes together, and everything collapses so there’s no need to act (Se) yet. So I’m sticking with FiNe (or maybe FiSi more specifically), since I think Ni 6th could work here as well.
While time is withdrawn, consider the future And the past with an equal mind. At the moment which is not of action or inaction You can receive this: "on whatever sphere of being The mind of a man may be intent At the time of death"—that is the one action (And the time of death is every moment) Which shall fructify in the lives of others: And do not think of the fruit of action. Fare forward. … The recurrent image into pre-conscious terrors— To explore the womb, or tomb, or dreams; all these are usual Pastimes and drugs, and features of the press: And always will be, some of them especially When there is distress of nations and perplexity Whether on the shores of Asia, or in the Edgware Road. Men's curiosity searches past and future And clings to that dimension. But to apprehend The point of intersection of the timeless With time, is an occupation for the saint— No occupation either, but something given And taken, in a lifetime's death in love, Ardour and selflessness and self-surrender.
At this half though it’s ‘we’re all just fluctuating to different times anyway. Everything is uncertain, there’s no ‘source of movement’ (NeSi/ Se PoLR)
For most of us, there is only the unattended Moment, the moment in and out of time, The distraction fit, lost in a shaft of sunlight, The wild thyme unseen, or the winter lightning Or the waterfall, or music heard so deeply That it is not heard at all, but you are the music While the music lasts. These are only hints and guesses, Hints followed by guesses; and the rest Is prayer, observance, discipline, thought and action. The hint half guessed, the gift half understood, is Incarnation. Here the impossible union Of spheres of existence is actual, Here the past and future Are conquered, and reconciled, Where action were otherwise movement Of that which is only moved And has in it no source of movement— Driven by daemonic, chthonic Powers. And right action is freedom From past and future also. For most of us, this is the aim Never here to be realised; Who are only undefeated Because we have gone on trying;
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 13:33:01 GMT -5
We're getting warmer.
Alls I'll say for now is he sure had me fooled.
I'll let you guys deal with these materials for a little longer and then post a video reveal, okay?
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 22:33:07 GMT -5
Okay I thought I knew his ct but I've changed twice during this and now I'm almost positive I do. I've decided instead of doing the reveal right away, I'm going to ask some questions that I hope are thought-provoking, not necessarily to be answered 'out loud' here, but please by all means feel free to do so...to answer or just to probe further.
1. Sometimes in photos the poet seems Se PolR, other times he doesn't. Not just Se but all the extroverted functions, are associated with action-in-the-world. What is the poet's ultimate stance on action-in-the-world in the poem? What does this suggest about the slots of 'absolute value' (first, third, sixth, and eighth?).
2. Consensus is leaning toward FiNe. Fi is subjective intrapersonal valuation, including intensity of personal feelings. Is the fundamental stance of this poem actually concerned with intense personal feelings?
3. How does the poem start and how does it end? If you were to assign a function to the very beginning and the very end, the first and last eleven words, what two functions would they be? What does this suggest about how they could slot?
4. It has been repeatedly noted from photos that gamma is very unlikely yet we are reluctant to discard NiTe completely as at least a possiblity. How much does the poem really 'collapse meaning'? If it's not enough for NiTe, what configuration could push Ni so much into the forefront?
5. What the hell is going on with his Te? If he doesn't value it absolutely, what's he doing with it? Is he making some kind of statement about it? If so, what, and where could it slot?
6. Si seems very prominent. Someone still keeps SiTe on the back burner as possible. If SiTe is not the ct, given all the above, what configuration/s would still enable such a strong presence of Si?
7. Most people had a strong impression of probable Delta quadra. What if anything is Delta about the poem? Given the diversity of the photos, does any photo scream 'not Delta' and if so why?
8. If in fact the poet is Se PolR, we need a configuration where something can pinch hit and give the impression he's not. What could that be?
9. What about the poem? Is the poem itself Se PolR? Why/why not? Don't forget about PolR as superpower. Could this be the case? How? Why?
10. Express in your own words in a paragraph or so (here or just for yourself) the meaning of the poem.
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 22:51:06 GMT -5
ps adding on to question 4, Ni sixth has been suggested by Amy as a good fit. Is it? How good? Why?
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Post by Roshan on Oct 1, 2020 23:21:04 GMT -5
Looking at the poem though I wondered if he was an Ni user, time comes together, and everything collapses so there’s no need to act (Se) yet. Is there or isn't there really a need to act yet, Amy? Is there even really a 'yet'? And then therein, what is the purpose and place of 'right action'?
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Oct 2, 2020 2:23:39 GMT -5
Okay I thought I knew his ct but I've changed twice during this and now I'm almost positive I do. I've decided instead of doing the reveal right away, I'm going to ask some questions that I hope are thought-provoking, not necessarily to be answered 'out loud' here, but please by all means feel free to do so...to answer or just to probe further. 1. Sometimes in photos the poet seems Se PolR, other times he doesn't. Not just Se but all the extroverted functions, are associated with action-in-the-world. What is the poet's ultimate stance on action-in-the-world in the poem? What does this suggest about the slots of 'absolute value' (first, third, sixth, and eighth?). The whole poem seems like a meditation on the pointlessness of our attempts to add onto and 'quell' nature. The river is within us all, and it's more powerful than us too. Despite all of our implicit attempts to overcome the natural world by forgetting about it, manifesting more creation in the world, remaining in awe of ourselves, and holding the delusional notion that we're growing as a species, we're still bound to the cycle of life and death and suffering which will ultimately dominate us and determine our fate. Our actions are fruitless.
If we can learn to accept nature for what it is, including the death that comes with it, through temporal reversion and contentment within nature, we may be able to feel whole and peaceful. There is no need to add definition or meaning to what's already here.
This all seems incredibly un-Se and un-Pe in general, suggesting that he's likely an introverted jumper of some kind. However, he has a rather antagonistic attitude towards action. He isn't quite ignoring it as much as he is 'rationalizing' why our actions are futile and powerless. To me, Se/Ni valuing is at least 80% out of the question. It really seems as though he's 'jumped' Ne and 'reached for' Si, almost overemphasizing its importance as one would with their hidden agenda function. Ni 6th still seems like an good fit, and his antagonistic attitude toward Se, with the river as the brown god and the emphasis on nature as the sole determiner, PiSi or SiPi is where I'm at.2. Consensus is leaning toward FiNe. Fi is subjective intrapersonal valuation, including intensity of personal feelings. Is the fundamental stance of this poem actually concerned with intense personal feelings? He seems as though he's ostensibly adopting an intrapersonally-based 'intelligence' regarding others intense personal feelings, as opposed to being genuinely concerned with his own. 3. How does the poem start and how does it end? If you were to assign a function to the very beginning and the very end, the first and last eleven words, what two functions would they be? What does this suggest about how they could slot?The poem starts with an allusion to a river, calling it a 'brown god' after saying that he doesn't know much about gods. Gods aren't usually thought of as brown, though. It ends with referring to the true significance of the soil we ignore because we build things on it, and a reminder to remember 'the yew-tree.' I didn't know what a yew-tree was, but apparently it's often called the Tree of Death.
So...the river is a god because it flows, we build bridges on it, and we forget about it. It's a brown god too, and given what he's trying to say throughout the rest of the poem, it essentially suggests that the natural world is our god and will disappoint our 'belief' in the advancement of technology("communication with Mars") and finding meaning in building. However he's also sort of "guessing" what the river could be, and trying to conceptually concretize it. At the very least it suggests Si and a devaluing of Ni. The end of the poem suggests that we remember Si too, we have to remember our history and the yew-tree/death. If we do so, and find acceptance within our knowledge of that, we don't have to take any more action. We can appreciate the significance of the soil and the richness of life it can provide. He really seems like he's grasping for Si and Fe to me. Overall though, the beginning of the poem seems like a grasping for Si and the end seems like a recognition of the futility of Se, suggesting Ni 6th.
So, the two functions I'd assign to the beginning and end are Si 3rd and Ni 6th, respectively. If not that, then Si 1st and Ni 8th.4. It has been repeatedly noted from photos that gamma is very unlikely yet we are reluctant to discard NiTe completely as at least a possiblity. How much does the poem really 'collapse meaning'? If it's not enough for NiTe, what configuration could push Ni so much into the forefront?4a. "ps adding on to question 4, Ni sixth has been suggested by Amy as a good fit. Is it? How good? Why?"
The poem does sort of collapse meaning, but "collapsing" might not be as good as..."already collapsed." Referring to my answers to the previous questions above, Ni 6th does ultimately seem like a good fit. Meaning is "already collapsed" when you look at the futility of our actions and the fact that we're going to die.5. What the hell is going on with his Te? If he doesn't value it absolutely, what's he doing with it? Is he making some kind of statement about it? If so, what, and where could it slot?
The does seem to be making a statement about Te. He regards the process of, and 'awe of' technological production and its process as unnecessary, almost like he's pushing it to the side. What seems to 'disturb' him the most, though, is the way that the presence of what we've produced actually distracts us from necessarily learning about the past and finding peace within natural life cycles. Te 5th and Se 7th?I'm thinking TiSi.
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