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Post by winter on Jan 3, 2021 14:51:05 GMT -5
All that said the caveat still applies...there's a gray zone, plenty of syn flows who would have gotten me getting this....and some counterflows who wouldn't have but they'd have to be very soft cf and most likely not sp/sx of any range... btw it's also possible the template might be more useful if there were three flows, syn, contra, and...scontryn or...something... I kind of love this idea.
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Post by winter on Jan 3, 2021 14:54:28 GMT -5
The problem with David's evocations (or one of the problems with them) is that he evokes a chair that has a back and legs, seats only one person, is manmade, intended for sitting, etc. But that's not the way it goes with people and Gray always ignores the gray area out of convenience. This is already a clarification. Each stacking doesn't 'just' perform one set of functions intended to fulfill certain 'roles,' which neither David nor I(in my original reply on here) actually said. This is really helpful Roshan I wondered why I couldn’t find flow info elsewhere, older enneagram leaders etc. Yes, @anthony you’re right, it is not possible to concretise them. However this was indeed a clarification. As was your post! I’ll look up the cosplayer.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Jan 3, 2021 19:09:34 GMT -5
But insofar as concretizing the inconcretizable, there is nothing more counterflow than Bowie's "Blackstar". And despite the world practically standing still to watch it I very tediously had to explain and even insist to people on facebook (at the time fb was running full steam) that he had had himself euthanized and planned the timing of this 'release'. And people wanted to know how do I know and I'm like well he's telling us, a nd at the time my network was large majority downtown NYC artists around my age. So again, there are far more syn than counterflows and one thing about counterflow is a comfort and lack of sentimentality about death. I also recall one exchange just when his death was announced where I said dying at 74 suits Bowie; now neither he nor we have to watch him decay. And this woman, this writer I've known forever, she practically had a cow. How could I, how dare I, poor Bowie...and the funny thing is this woman's an sx 5, albeit 5w6 but still, high sx too, but it's sx/sp. So when the shit hits the fan she has a fundamentally human attitude toward death (probably her own more than Bowie's at that moment) and also toward the protocols around it. The idea of a downtown boho chic artiste taking umbrage at that comment about the person who was about to release this... It seems like counterflow essentially has a lack of the disturbance towards not just death, but anything you'd expect "humans / humans on earth" to viscerally perceive as 'violent,' because they are "out there and under/above it all." (Such as with Nick Cave's visceral thrills from violent thoughts -- but how does one distinguish this from being a 'violent person,' is sp/sx more violent?) In "Blackstar" Bowie does seem to be basically laying out the events that will take place on a proposed(from him) day of execution. Death is "okay" with him, because it part of the life/death cycle, instantiated from the "out there and under/above it all." I'm having minor difficulties articulating this, but hopefully this makes sense.
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hiddenglass
Swallow
lay me to rest, take me to sea // read my mind… let me be.
Posts: 179
Enneagram Core Fix: 5⁴
Relationship Status: searching
Occupation(s): idling
Education: ongoing
Interests: growing
Country/Region: chicago
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Post by hiddenglass on Jan 4, 2021 2:55:17 GMT -5
But again the problem is there's a spectrum due to ranges so there will be double variant syn flows who due to influence of E-type will seem a lot more counterflow than some counterflows. Dark social so/SX e.g. that seem more counterflow than soft sx/SO's. And vice versa. hence so many people INSISTING I must be scsp based on my collages or spikiness or whatever. and yes, I don't think I nor winter (both synflow [note: I know winter's stacking {and my range for that matter} are not uncontested, but I remain unmoved by the challenges as heretofore witnessed]) would have blinked at your talking about Bowie's death that way.
winter you know how I feel about the flows, though I'll iterate my position here—I think DG's Enneasite articulations are a FINE guide when it comes to evocative descriptions of the flows… and I am down with the additional clarifications contributed here as well. hopefully I'll get Hazel to make me a video soon so I can share it here, as she is someone (tentatively typed spSX) that seems like a "light" contraflow.
I'd point to some other "fringe" typings that I think evoke the borders of my conception of syn- / contraflow, or ones I think are incorrect, but I can't think of any good ones. (besides the wild EU typings that you know I disagree with) Largely I've found our intuition to be aligned when it comes to the flows, and I believe my intuition is largely aligned with the conception held here on EF, so, to name names, it mostly leaves people like jastyne as the outliers.
I'd be interested in any dissenting takes being hashed out here, fer sher, even if it's only a few exemplars. I believe anthony had generally found entropic's takes more palatable that I have; this could speak to one thing I have noticed: my intuition holds with EF's typings for all but some curious "exceptions"—meaning that there are a few typings I've seen that have struck me as somewhat "left field" typings. (like scsx for Zuko, for example, though I know he's not the only aberration I've witnessed)
that, imo, is likely due to a mildly over-narrow view I have of the stackings that doesn't allow for what we might say are some of the "grayer" presentations.
I remain open to new understandings, but I don't think you have a very erroneous view of the flows at all—if you wanted to drop some links or examples of wonky typings that have had you second guessing I'd be interested
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
Posts: 1,537
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Jan 5, 2021 0:06:36 GMT -5
But again the problem is there's a spectrum due to ranges so there will be double variant syn flows who due to influence of E-type will seem a lot more counterflow than some counterflows. Dark social so/SX e.g. that seem more counterflow than soft sx/SO's. And vice versa.
I'd be interested in any dissenting takes being hashed out here, fer sher, even if it's only a few exemplars. I believe anthony had generally found entropic's takes more palatable that I have; this could speak to one thing I have noticed: my intuition holds with EF's typings for all but some curious "exceptions"—meaning that there are a few typings I've seen that have struck me as somewhat "left field" typings. (like scsx for Zuko, for example, though I know he's not the only aberration I've witnessed)
Stating the obvious, I should probably emphasize that my interpretation of the instincts was and continues to be rather nebulous. Not only did I neglect to explore the stackings with the same focus as done with the fixations(during the Enneatude days), but my stacking in particular has remained undetermined, making it difficult for me to grasp the stackings with the SAME depth and in the SAME way I was able to grasp fixes, by "cognitive empathetically" internalizing them and carefully observing over time, noting how they manifest in others. I also had "too many ways" of attempting to figure out someone's stacking as a way of solving my own uncertainties. This included stack-fix correlations(typing backwards), leading me to agree with things like so/SX for Zuko when really it should've been obvious that he wasn't. I can begin to allow for too much gray area, as opposed to you. "Too many variables, too many contradictions." To a varying extent, all of us already know and understand the instinct ranges. But underlying the above, I think part of my essential question is "Where are the border lines? Do physical and energetic signatures(something I over-rely upon) always apply? And how much do they have to apply before someone is actually a different stacking? What actually brings about those energies? And where does the 'bringing about' start and end? How much do they change along with someone's range?" It's also "What do I emphasize? Someone's actionable approaches to certain situations? Or do I emphasize their energetic cues, since approach can be 'solved' via fixes?" REALLY I'm overcomplicating this, I think. I'm leaning more and more towards the stance of "letting the flows/instincts/ranges" speak for themselves without the over-consideration of (more) external variables."
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Post by Roshan on Jan 5, 2021 11:31:07 GMT -5
REALLY I'm overcomplicating this, I think. No, REALLY you're oversimplifying this. "Where are the border lines? Do physical and energetic signatures(something I over-rely upon) always apply? And how much do they have to apply before someone is actually a different stacking? What actually brings about those energies? And where does the 'bringing about' start and end? How much do they change along with someone's range?" You're attempting to quantify the unquantifiable. This only appears to be an overcomplexifaction. It's not. It's an avoidance of the truly complex messiness of reality.
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anthony
Terra9Incognita
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Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by anthony on Jan 5, 2021 11:49:30 GMT -5
REALLY I'm overcomplicating this, I think. No, REALLY you're oversimplifying this. "Where are the border lines? Do physical and energetic signatures(something I over-rely upon) always apply? And how much do they have to apply before someone is actually a different stacking? What actually brings about those energies? And where does the 'bringing about' start and end? How much do they change along with someone's range?" You're attempting to quantify the unquantifiable. This only appears to be an overcomplexifaction. It's not. It's an avoidance of the truly complex messiness of reality. I understand that. That’s what I meant when I said I was(and really HAVE been) leaning towards the stance of letting those questions(regarding the stacks) speak for themselves(because they’re unquantifiable). Though yeah, “overcomplicating” wasn’t at all the right word. The quantification IS a result of trying to clean the messiness.
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Post by Roshan on Jan 5, 2021 11:58:29 GMT -5
You're oversimplifying again anthony. Moving along.
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Post by winter on Jan 9, 2021 9:37:06 GMT -5
@cardia I’d really like to hear your views on how you conceptualise the flows c vs s etc Like Anthony said it is quite a nebulous thing but I enjoy taking perceptions and playing with them internally
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jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Jan 17, 2021 3:39:59 GMT -5
@cardia I’d really like to hear your views on how you conceptualise the flows c vs s etc Like Anthony said it is quite a nebulous thing but I enjoy taking perceptions and playing with them internally This is one of the exact illustrations I've used!
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jastyne
Hummingbird
Posts: 106
Enneagram Core Fix: 9w1
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Post by jastyne on Jan 17, 2021 3:44:02 GMT -5
But again the problem is there's a spectrum due to ranges so there will be double variant syn flows who due to influence of E-type will seem a lot more counterflow than some counterflows. Dark social so/SX e.g. that seem more counterflow than soft sx/SO's. And vice versa. hence so many people INSISTING I must be scsp based on my collages or spikiness or whatever. and yes, I don't think I nor winter (both synflow [note: I know winter's stacking {and my range for that matter} are not uncontested, but I remain unmoved by the challenges as heretofore witnessed]) would have blinked at your talking about Bowie's death that way.
winter you know how I feel about the flows, though I'll iterate my position here—I think DG's Enneasite articulations are a FINE guide when it comes to evocative descriptions of the flows… and I am down with the additional clarifications contributed here as well. hopefully I'll get Hazel to make me a video soon so I can share it here, as she is someone (tentatively typed spSX) that seems like a "light" contraflow.
I'd point to some other "fringe" typings that I think evoke the borders of my conception of syn- / contraflow, or ones I think are incorrect, but I can't think of any good ones. (besides the wild EU typings that you know I disagree with) Largely I've found our intuition to be aligned when it comes to the flows, and I believe my intuition is largely aligned with the conception held here on EF, so, to name names, it mostly leaves people like jastyne as the outliers.
I don't think I've ever heard what your conception of synflow vs. contraflow is, actually... winter or @hiddenglass, will one of you please give me a brief articulation?
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Post by winter on Feb 4, 2021 16:55:55 GMT -5
Yeah I would have to specifically write this out as all of my info about this is stored in my head. I’ll try and write it out eventually but I have a lot to do in the next two weeks.
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